Hi, I have tested both servos, within rating, the sustainable output was 25NM for both, with the torque deration on the SC2 slower and better managed than on the DD2.
What you are feeling is the higher ripple in output from the podium, thinking it feels stronger. The SC2 is smoother with better filtering and less spiky response, this is why you are “feeling” as if it has lower torque.
Simple test, set all filters on the SC2 to lowest value, and drive the Ford GT3 in iRacing. Next, set RF to 8 or and damping to 10, drive again.
The first test will feel far stronger ffb than the 2nd, even you are not changing the torque. Smoothing removes peaks and valleys, which will not fatigue you as much on same torque levels.
Why are filters bad? The noise that you are feeling with low/zero filter ffb us not in any way realistic at all. I am faster, with better car control, at higher torque and smoother filters, than the opposite.
Yes, we are all different, but lower filters is definitely not a better reflection of actual reality.
@jamesc: I have been running these dd wheels near or at max torque since 2014 - someone has to be the Crazy Test Monkey, huh
The difference in feel is de for the most part in the way the two units deliver their power… The Fanatec’s are have a lot of initial torque and spin up much faster than the SC2. This leads to a more active wheel that gets to it peaks much faster and more abruptly… This for the users feels as if it is delivering more power than it actually is… If you want to test your real torque levels you could set iRacing to clip early with Maximum torque and then go on the centripetal circuit and drive around… The sustained clipped icy like weight of the wheel is the true output force… Granted after about 3 seconds of this with a Fanatec you will feel it derate to a lower Nm.
@jamesc there are actually many that do run these at pretty high strength levels… and I like Beano have run alot of different servo and wheels I have found that the makeup of the servo design has a significant impact on the end feel and that smaller Lighter servos tend to have additional shock value you might say over larger counterparts due to the way the power is delivered (mentioned above) The Fanatec’s are a bit of anomaly but because of using the higher initial torque out runner style servos they have alot of spin-up speed and act more like a smaller servo but with the additional top end torque that many smaller servos cannot get to physically. this of course does create a situation where the Fanatec has a very strong but jabbby feel to it… and unfortunately In my mind Fanatec has not yet mastered the filters enough to REALLY calm it yet… However, that being said smaller Jabbier servos do have a place for people who are looking for a more game like feel as they are more likely to translate the feel of having more information though the wheel than the more natural feeling wheels.
The way I attribute it is more active wheels or wheel settings tend to Jab and punch you constantly which can be very fatiguing at high forces, however less active wheels like the SC2 Pro will instead of punching you will just give you a hard shove… this is less fatiguing and actually more to how a real car delivers forces through the wheel.
Yes the issue is really if they can figure out the filtering methodology to smooth it out further… The servo is actually pretty smooth but it is just so abrupt in nature and none of the filters they currently offer tame that aspect… One of the problem that was the case with the SC1 is that though you can filter the servos to make them feel better there is a point where the particular the of servo can be over filtered and then it just feels Dead and or very sluggish… The Small Mige SC1 had this issue if you wanted to get it to feel closer to the Large Mige SC1 which actually feels like a bit more active SC2… The Large Mige has a very natural feel to it but in order to get the Small Mige to the same type of feel you had to add filtering enough that at a certain point just sort of kills the response and feel of the servo, in effect over filtering the servo… This could happen with the Fanatec as well and it can even happen with the SC2 Servos… but since it is already a more natural feel servo by the time you might over filter it you would be beyond what you would want to be on feel anyway so you are less likely to get to that point.
it’s not a setup issue. Fanatec is physically faster probably due to the design of the engine (Outrunner)
Which does not mean that the speed is missing SC2
Well my subjective feel having had both units back to back is that the SC2 is at least if not faster than the podium.
Also even when powered off the sc2 has hardly any resistance whatsoever and is completely smooth to my feel. the podium you can feel the magnets/coils if you concentrate on it.
Regardless both units are probably capable of producing ffb so fast that it would actually be unrealistic for a car anyway. There are certainly a few things I miss on the Podium base, but ffb speed, strength and quality is certainly not one of them.
Guys… It is not about the top speed but it is how fast it gets to the commanded torque… its acceleration… The Fanatec accelerates quite a bit faster and does not not really have filtering to help slow this making it a more active and abrupt system when compared with the SimuCUBE… Both wheels are FAST and in pure speed the SC2 is probably actually faster from the nature of the motors as out-runners tend to be High torque low RPM units. The SC2 has the Wonderful Torque Skew adjustment which in all reality is needed desperately on the Fanatec. That particular control allows the adjustment of the acceleration and allows you to easily tame the wheel without much loss of anything.
Granted there is no direct proof on the devices themselves without having all of the pertinent measuring equipment and being able to override the control systems and get into full tuning so you can supply the exact signals you want (as you can with the SimuCUBE SC1’s) but in the end it does all come back to the feeling it gives and how it feeds that to you the driver…
By the Nature of the types of servos used the acceleration factor is in the design of the servos as Outrunners servos have a much more substantial initial torque moment due to the initial magnetic field created by design… This in turn leads to a quicker torque application and intern faster acceleration and a more active feel to the wheel as it can change direction more abruptly (due to both torque application and weight).
The way the systems work in the wheels is just to be given a torque moment and then try to reach that torque as fas as possible… Though it can be done internally (i.e the Torque Skew Filter) acceleration of the servo is not a controlled point of FFB, in reality to give consistent feedback across devices it should be.
The subjective feelings that I have are based on significant testing of different systems including different servos types on the same SC1 controller so I can confidently attest to the basic nature differences in the feel they provide and how they go about doing it. As well only semi related but dealing with the design of Small motors for R/C cars for Many, Many, years there are significant parallels to what we are doing here when it comes to motor design as the attributes they provide… i.e in r/c car modified motors you can have just about any number of winds, wire size, poles, ect… and each winding (even though all are in the same case) will have significantly different attributes on track) i.e high wind smaller wire diameter motors produce much more Low End torque (due to a larger magnetic field created) and accelerate faster than a Low Wind large Diameter Motor BUT the later will create much more top end speed than the former due to weight…
So in the end MOST of the feel comes from the basic Motor design then secondary if the filtering is good enough then you can control that servo however as I believe I mentioned earlier depending on the servo there may be only so far you can go in actually tuning it before causing it to become over filtered.
And yet it’s a custom motor with certain design considerations that may impact typical benefits. It’s strange that if there was an easy win for their marketing department on torque slew rate why it wasn’t taken…
Because the DD1 and DD2 is actually about a 3-4 year old design now if you consider initial development time… A lot of the realities and what is needed for DD Wheels is still being learned… It took a while to figure out that as fast as can be is NOT really the best with regard to feel at the wheel and it required back to back testing with different servos to really understand the differences…
Fanatec does have an opportunity to work on their filtering and tame the servo a bit more with acceleration control and a few other things… The Early released DD1/2 didn’t even have an inertia filter which has proven to be a great filter for combatting oscillations due to its dual effect nature when used in a FFB environment… They also didn’t have inputt smoothing until just recently. Again needed to allow people to fine tune the feel they get at the wheel and is more important the more active the wheel gets.
In the end though each company will go the direction that they feel best in pursuing… The one good thing about the SimuCUBE is from its beginnings with the SC1 it has been widely able to be adjusted and with the SC1 because it was ONLY a controller and not a complete system there was a lot of opportunity to test different types and style servos on a common drive system which of course provides a bunch of information about how they react and provide feedback…
There is a significantly wide range of at the wheel feel that can be had JUST due to the servo choice made.
Hi guys i’m Adrian and i live in Indonesia so apologize if my english not good enough.
I hope someone can help me to decide.
I am using Fanatec csl elite and Fanatec v3Inverted pedals since 2017 on PS4, the game i played the most is F1 and Dirt Rally. Now i want to upgrade my kit, i’m trying to find the best realistic simracing kit out there so i’m looking to upgrade my wheelbase to SC2 pro and of course i have to use PC as well. May you guys please give me your opinion and advice. Is it worth for me to do that ? And is it complicated or not for the guy like me who try to switch from PS4 to PC ? In my mind, using PC are much more harder/complicated rather than PS4.
Thank you in advance guys. Hopefully someone can help me.
I wouldnt hold my breathe with Fanatec Software development… I waited 18 months… EVERY driver they release was a complete mess in different ways. You would update each time with your eyes closed and holding your breathe that it didnt brick something.
I had a full windows reinstall on one after hours of troubleshooting to bring it back to life. And still bugs, freezes and knocks.
I mean to this day the OLED screen is useless as fanatec themselves say you must leave it on the logo screen to stop random ffb knocks and not use any of the telemetry. they are working on a fix but its been over a year now. HOW?
I actually LOVE the hardware… I think the base looks great, and imo better than the simucube but their software drivers are just horrific. Eventually they will get there though I’m sure… and the next base they bring out will be the one you will want. As a day 1 Podium owner though i just felt like a beta tester in allot of ways.
You should as @maviaggi said switch to using the PC first and then upgrade… The wheel that you have will work on the PC so it shouldn’t be too hard but it will be more about getting used to the way the PC works and the programs used. It isn’t hard but it also isn’t quite as simple as the turn it on and it runs situation of the PS4… Once you have everything working and have gotten used to it (may only take you a couple days to get to that point) then continue your journey with upgrading… For realism I would suggest the SC2 as far as the wheel characteristics.
