Have never experienced the difference myself with Argon OSW or SC2 Pro.
From my understanding what it does is controls MCC, and if demand for current is below the set limit (low forces in your case) motor output should be exactly the same.
But let me ask you this, let’s assume there is a difference that you can feel, why not just set TD to 100% and continue controlling signal gain in sim?
If GD adds that control to TD similar to what MMos had, it will be just additional FFB gain multiplier on the top of potentially already clipped one that comes from game, if you set it too high there, in other words extra complexity that users need to be educated on.
It can solve for bumpstop strength problem though that also depends on current limit now.
I am not afraid of the complexity and have not seen anybody post they think the current complexity is too much either.
Many things are already only adjustable in the “advanced” mode anyways.
I already set it at 100% in Truedrive, as you suggest too, as the solution. It’s why my hands have bled on multiple occasions and my left thumb has been hurting for a month, as I wrote in my first post.
But there are many solutions to keep it simpler while still addressing the issue.
The simplest would be to change the current force slider to scale the input instead of the motor current.
Absolutely no complexity added and quality of the output is better.
Try that in iracing.
Besides that the only software that can really safeguard us across all titles is truedrive/firmware, so it should be there.
It also is there, the current force slider, but the current implementation unf. lowers performance when used.
Additionally i don’t have a gamma slider that lets me adjust linearity post other truedrive filters.
This also makes my overall ffb worse than it could be, when such a filter is required.
The only reason is to let the ultimate shine more, but the problem is that the wheel bases the sc2 sport and pro compete against have it. Just sport and pro now cannot, since it’s ultimate exclusive in the sc2 lineup.
the level of detail I get if i lower iracing gain is the same, just less powerful. I never experienced a worse ffb just by lowering gain. maybe it’s worth knowing what filters levels you are using in td.
I think @Mika can sort it out if there is still a question if my feel of the quality of the output is right or wrong. Edit: I could be wrong, for some reason.
But I honestly am very confident in what I feel, unf.
Any amount of dampening or friction will quickly hide the facts to a high degree, since it is most pronounced at the low forces.
If you personally don’t care about that, then that’s fine, for you. The product is still limiting itself like others don’t.
Same for the gamma. You might not need it personally, but I do personally. It is subjective as I am sure we agree, but there are pretty simple software solutions that would fix these mentioned issues and provide a higher quality output, making both of us happy.
You might not need it, but it would be higher quality, objectively.
i am not putting into question your ffb perception, it’s the most subjective thing in the world.
i jsut wanted to know if you are using some kind of filter or not, because if not and set td at 0% on D, F and I then I bet you get a ffb way worse and undefined as it could be
You think gamma is that useful?
AC and ACC have one but I have never heard of DD owners using the feature, only low powered consumer wheel users. Did you try it?
Yes, I use it, when available in a good implementation and when I for some reason don’t run the wheel base at full power.
Otherwise the low forces become too low to have any effect.
I know we want it to be fully linear, if possible, but that is not really working practically, imo.
I would not need it as much if the power was scaled at the input. So these 2 things are slightly connected in use. In truedrive I don’t have either. Ultimate users have the one of them, on other wheel bases they have both.
While it is not Gamma per se, but TD has Static Force reduction filter that might help with lower forces details as you can increase overall gain.
At least something you can try.
Do you limit yourself to Madness Engine titles, wondering if the problem is there, they never had stellar force feedback.
No, your suggested hack using static force reduction will not work, since the hack depends on running at higher NM force in Truedrive. The very thing I don’t want to have to do in the first place and not an option if already running at 100% in the 2nd place, where gamma would still work.
Madness titles do have excellent feedback, imo,
with both @NuScorpii and my own custom files. You should try PC2 if you have it with the file linked to prior in this thread or one of our AMS2 files to see for yourself.
No, I don’t limit myself, but it is where this became obvious to me.
It is fine you are happy as it is. I just point out why I am not, and that the competing products have these features that I miss, and that I miss for no reason that I agree to reg. gamma being an ultimate exclusive and reg. the other issue I simply would prefer not losing details/quality when lowering the NM in truedrive. This leading to me pushing that force higher than I would like to from a safety perspective.
While all of this is true… there is a point with the last one… It is not so much as the Pro and Sport being crippled but Granite making the choice to ease setup by limiting tuning parameters on the lower models… There are some things that I do belive they have gone too far on limiting as it ends up in certain cases less tunable than even the SC1’s but that is a choice that they have made… They are straddling being straight forward and confusing on settings… While I agree to some extent that they should allow all capable filters on all the units I do also belive they have to do it by a standard and advanced mode… But is this truly a real detriment… Yes and No, because if you don’t know what you don’t have sometimes you don’t miss it.
Having been on the beta testing team for the DD2 they yes have input scaling to a degree and sort of on base adjustments… The crippling I mentioned above which isn’t really crippling as the software does what it really needs to it just isn’t as thorough for the user as the Ultimate or if you go with another Brand Accuforce… The Fanatecs honestly have far less adjustment ability than the SimuCubes overall and the adjustments done through FanaLab are done through Direct Input Effect Control rather than directly on the Hardware which means it does the filter processing on the computer and to have that filter you MUST have Fanalab open… As for the SC2’s not being able to run at full force ??? They most definitely can they will run at the rated force when you turn them to 100% Strength in TrueDrive… So I am not sure what is being talked about there… Input scaling I am not sure why you would want that. generally because each game is putting out what it feels is correct… if you scale above 100% as Fanatec will allow 110% through FOR you are asking to clip the wheels drive system and cause choppy uneven control of the wheel… Most Titles have a Gain control of some kind to reduce the signal to the wheel (iRacing is a little different) but the games have all controls for reduction so there is really no need to have an over boosting of the signal in reality. As for On Base adjustments you only have those with Fanatec IF you are of course using a Fanatec wheel which more than likely you would be given that you kind of have to, though when I was running the Beta I had a universal hub and was using my own button box.
They don’t they react the same way as you lower the DD it lowers linearly within the drive system so it is basically the same here. I don’t really see Fanatec coming out with a lower DD system unless they choose to get rid of belt drive completely. (I have no insider knowledge on anything like that)
There are however significant general feel differences that are most likely present as the Servo used in the DD1/2 is a much more “active” unit than the servos in the SimuCUBE’s (NOTE: the DD1 and DD2 servos are EXACTLY the same the DD1 is limited to 20Nm). This does mean that to some it may “feel” better at lower power as the reactions of the wheel will be sharper to smaller movements… That doesn’t however always mean better as that activeness in my experience can mask small fairly important details or cause harsher feedback than should actually be delivered.
A - SimuCUBEs really aren’t any more crippled than a DD1 to DD2 comparison… but I guess if the Massively more expensive units have a feature you want like the Gamma change then it would seem Crippled… But with that the Fanatecs have no comparable filter at the moment either so…
B - Again you really don’t want this and Fanatec don’t really even have this fully as you cannot limit though you can through the Direct Input FOR effect (which again generally you don’t want to use).
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This is NOT a bashing of the SC2’s by any means, so please don’t read it like that. I will still enjoy mine for at least a short amount of time more. At constant full NM.
Posting this here so it can add to future decision making for which wheel base to pick. In this forum I find it only fair to have multiple angles represented.
And Josef, despite going off topic, I repeat my suggestion that you go absolutely 100% on NM, when you feel safe doing so, if you want the best from your wheel base, until maybe one day these things are changed.
Fwiw, my personal opinion. I like the feeling of quality, but it’s not enough to know I have great hardware. It needs to come out to play, not being held back by fakely crippled software or missing input signal adjustments.
(@Mika, you might not like this input or you might, but linking you so you are at least aware of one user’s developing perspective on some of these matters, as I did share some of it with you earlier. I appreciate all your effort and commitment, and that has def. been a high point of my ownership to see, so thank you.)
-K
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In the end though differences in feel between the Sport and the Pro would come down mostly to servo build differences as opposed to True Drive limits on filters… I haven’t been able to drive both of these back to back so I don’t know what the nature is between them or the exact differences in feel. Generally speaking I am most familiar with iRacing set-up which with iRacing you “DO” want to set True Drive to 100 and then make adjustments in iRacing. iRacing uses an attenuation model for strength control which is different from pretty much every other games Gain model. With an Attenuation model you START at 100% always and then can adjust once you find your best settings to reduce the strength if possible while retaining Fidelity in order to reduce hard impacts… In other games you would generally set the Game for 100% and then adjust the wheelbase so the game puts out it’s best 100% signal and then you reduce it with TrueDrive.
Just add some things after reading further… it seems as if you are having more issues with iRacing feel and NOT running 100%… and that is because of the iRacing Attenuation Model. this has NOTHING to do with the SC2 or any other DD wheel because all suffer when people don’t know how iRacing Sets up their system. The basics are that when you lower the Power in TD you tend to lower the Max Force slider in iRacing… problem is that when you lower the Max Force Slider in iRacing in Linear mode then you are actually lowering the Telemetry Clipping point OR 100% FFB Output… if you lower this below the Telemetry output your car puts out YOU CLIP… at this point you lose all detail and fidelity. this is why with iRacing it IS actually better to run the wheel at 100% TD. But this is NOT an issue with the SimuCUBE it is just lack or knowledge on how to set-up strength in iRacing as it is WAY different.
As for Gamma, Technically iRacing has FULL Gamma Control (or compression control) over feedback and can be done through using iRacing force maps… This is not generally recommended for use with a DD wheel as they are very linear and were originally created to actually Fix the non linearity of low force wheels. But nothing says they can’t be used on a DD it is just generally NOT common practice. As well you can try running iRacing with Linear mode OFF and allow iRacing to do its automatic signal compression/gamma correction with this you will never clip per se as they constantly monitor the signal and adjust it to try to give a well rounded signal, again generally for Low powered wheels.
Reg. Iceracing I do understand the model.
As I stated earlier I have no interest in running that game at TD 100% exactly because of the model. I don’t want any abrupt situation making ice trying to kill my hands.
You are correct I can use their built in gamma and that can help me be ok lowering TD force. This gamma is then applied PRIOR to any TD filters, again not optimal. For no good reason.
(btw, in ice I actually DO want it to clip too, bc of the model, since I would like strong forces up to a point and not above.)
Reg. “B”, yes I really do want that and you actually might too. At least you prob. would not mind.
It is not for “boosting” of the input signal: I never said I want that. It is for force adjustment without loss of quality. I simply want the best possible quality output when lowering the force. I would imagine all sc2 users want that.
Reg. not being able to push TD to 100% I did not say you cannot do that. I said that I don’t want to have to set it at 100% always for safety reasons.
Reg. DD1/DD2 I am not yet familiar enough with them, so it could well turn out I don’t want those either, thanks for the comparison info.
Either way, I would really like hardware I buy to not be held back by the software that comes with it. I like some of the filters on the SC2 and they def. help me improve the otherwise hopeless output from certain sims. I am not so happy about the recon filter, which unf. is another critical piece, btw, but that’s a whole other story.
Finally I don’t like the business decisions making some effects not available on sport and pro. It is weird to me and I highly doubt there is any benefit to it for anybody on this planet.
I would like to know that granite is doing all they can to optimize the quality of whatever hardware product I buy from them. Not keeping something back for some other group of users for whatever weird reasons.
Well, the effect is not a hack in itself.
To me it becomes a hack(or a trick, maybe a better word) when you try to make it take the place of another function, which it can or cannot or maybe can to some degree.
In this case the suggested trick does not work.
But even if it had worked it would come at the cost of a delay, that I also would prefer not to have for no good reason at all.
Here is the thing YOU CAN set it up to get full fidelity while NOT killing your hands you just have to do it by specific output and car…
#1 - Set TD to 100% and drive the car, adjust Max force to the Number you like feel and fidelity wise. #2 - Divide TD actual Power (PRO = 25Nm) by Max Force Number (say it is 85Nm) 25/85 = .294:1 #3 - Figure out the Car Max Telemetry by running a couple laps and then clicking on the “auto” name in the options. This will set your Max force most likely to a number far lower than you had set earlier (increasing strength). say it is 27 in this case… . #4 - Multiply the number that came up with auto by .294 (your specific output)… 27 * .294 = 7.938 #5 - set TD % to make the output 7.938Nm approx (31.7% approx)
Your wheel is now set up to get 98% telemetry at your Prefered strength at the wheel… No more Nasty curb or crash strikes as those will all be clipped out.
At this point you can either do this whole procedure for each car OR you can accept .294 as your Specific output and then do #3, 4, and 5 for each car driven.
Note if you can accept some curb hits from weaker cars you can actually take the settings from the car you run with the highest “auto” Nm and use those for all cars. More than likely if you are liking low strength your TD force will be somewhere around the 30% above.
the Point of most of the TD filters is actually to control the servo in a consistent manner though… They are not there really to allow you to change the feel of the car from the game… This is why they would come after the Gamma correction (which also happens if you use a force map). If Granite were to implement gamma IN the SimuCUBE it would be done in the same sequence… Changes to the Game input would come PRIOR to the Drive Filtering.
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](btw, in ice I actually DO want it to clip too, bc of the model, since I would like strong forces up to a point and not above.)
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Yes some people do… (see above to get full fidelity with proper clipping…) The issue though is when you start to clip actual pertinent information and this point changes from car to car because of the way the iRacing model works. so if you set up your system to clip excess for the Miata. those same settings would clip HALF of the pertinent information for the 488GT3. So basically you would have NO feeling in the F488 but you would in the Miata.
I guess in a way it would depend on what you consider to be the best possible feedback… In general terms the realistic best possible feedback you can get is feedback with matches the Game feedback exactly… But then it is possible at that point the game feedback isn’t the best and that would lay on the game developer to fix… From knowing a decent amount at how the inner workings of the system work due to working with Granite on the SC1 Manual and helping with the original SC1 interface. As long as things have held true with the SC2 there is VERY little alteration of the signal that comes from the game all standard filtering is done at the Drive level which is ONLY controlling the way the servo Reacts to the signal and the Power output of Truedrive is controlled at the power deliver level and again does not affect the actual game signal … While it is possible that reduction in Amperage to the drive system could result in some reduction in linearity it is fairly unlikely.
The SC2 has added a couple of filters such as the Constant force reduction, Skew, and Latency, which I am not sure where they come in as pre or post drive… the Reconstruction filter is the only Pre Drive filter I know for sure is Pre Drve… Mika and I had a lot of discussion about whether the Strength should be controlled by Incoming signal alteration or Drive Output Amperage and it was chosen that drive output Amperage was the better choice due to less chance of the Wheel itself coloring the signal in unexpected ways. If I remember correctly the first couple of versions of the SimuCUBE configuration tool (SC1) had signal modified amplitude.