Simucube 2 pro vs sport

Simucube 2 Simucube 2 Questions
21

Beano, perhaps I did not express myself clear enough in my last messages.
Yes, you are absolutely right, MMOs did not control amperage, we set it in Granity, but it did have gain control that operated at the signal level
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With SC1 (and SC2) we have lost that additional level of control and could limit max force via amperage only which could potentially lead to the issues with hardware clipping.
Simagic for instance allows both, amperage and signal level control in their RaceManager.
Would having that extra level in TD help with HW clipping?
For most titles that have proper in game gain control (e.g. AC, ACC) this is not an issue, we just max out TD max force and limit signal strength in game. But some, like DR2 for instance, just don’t have control for overall gain, so we are forced to lower amperage in TD thus creating conditions for HW level clipping.

Hope that makes sense.

22

You are absolutely correct in that MMOS had both (if you count Granity as the other method).

We, at the beginning of Simucube 1 development, had the MMOS method only. Then we experimented in beta phase to set up the MMC instead, and the testers found it better feeling. Therefore that has stayed.

We are for sure not adding both of the methods, it would just confuse the Drivers more, and we would have to add some kind of a API to set the max scale to the servo drive so that the filters would act in a consistant way… not worth the effort.

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23

Thanks Mika for chiming in.
Just to confirm, the previously raised HW level clipping concern (overcurrent) with only that level of control, is it even valid?

24

I’m not really sure which part of the discussion you are referring to. The Strength adjustment in True Drive and in Simucube 1 adjusts the MMC parameter directly.

25

Starting from here and my follow up post
Thanks

26

Ah yes, your understanding of the operation of the servo drive is not valid; the current defined by MMC is used as long as the wattage limits or some other limitation tells that it should be returned to MCC level. In practice, those limits are not met in simulator usage.So clipping will look the same as audio clipping:

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27

Isn’t MMC for short peaks only and MCC for continuous. That is servo cannot operate at MMC level all the times, only for short bursts?
https://granitedevices.com/wiki/Motor_peak_and_continuous_current_limits

But @morpwr and I were asking about clipping at HW level, if you undedrive the motor by limiting MMC and MCC, is that a real thing?

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28

Correct, but I’m not sure if that derating to MCC is enabled on Simucube 2 at all. Edit: it probably is.

And these are implementation details that have no actual relevance to typical driving conditions, as even if the MCC was 10.5 A and MMC was 12.86 A as is typical for Small Mige, then the limiting would only be felt if MMC > MCC to begin with, AND the signal to the servo drive was commanding >MCC current. Those kind of peaks typically last less than a second.

29

So would it be safe to say that in order to limit/eliminate HW level clipping,

  • the TD Gain must be maxed out
  • and force level controlled upstream via signal strength in game if it supports one

Just trying to fully understand condition that could lead to motor clipping.

30

There is only one type of clipping that really should be considered. We don’t want people to have the gain in True Drive at 100%, but rather what they feel is the absolute maximum for them. There is no extra clipping - it is LESS or even no clipping happening due to MMC->MCC derating when the True Drive strength is lower.

Just to the 99.9% people that might read this at some point: @Andrew_WOT has valid points but they are nothing that Simucube users should be considering at any point in time.

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31

Mika, is that a suggestion to not have td at 100%? or did I understood wrong?

32

It is always safer to adjust the strength that way, yes.

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33

Just to make sure I understand correctly, are you suggesting that it would be better to adjust in game gain to 100% and then lower the overall strength via True Drive?

I’ve always set the motor to 100% and run less than 50% in all games with the exception of iRacing.

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34

True Drive adjustment should be at whatever maximum the Driver wants to feel in crashes and other situations, and then in-game gain so that there is no clipping.

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35

Superb advise Mika esp. for crazy titles with runaway signal on crashes like iRacing.
Same goes for games without proper gain control like DR2.
@EsxPaul, for Assetto I wouldn’t worry much, except may be considering using same approach for consistency sake.

Mika, related question. Is there any benefit in maximizing in game signal strength. I remember there were long debates a while back, in other words, would we lose some dynamic range by limiting signal level?

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36

So what youre saying is the way it works regardless of on wheel gain it cant clip at the wheel because of the way True Drive is designed? Ive always done it like Andrew_WOT suggested. TD at 100 and just lower in game gain.

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37

I agree with you and honestly have never encountered it since going to DD. My question was more if you turn down wheel gain is it possible like with lower end consumer wheels where its very easy to do. Ive always set my DD bases up like you. Wheel at 100 and just control it in game.

38

I think people want to make it to difficult: Where these basic settings are concerned, there is no ‘blanket’ right or wrong way for everyone, but rather, there is a right or less right way for each of us.

Due to my personal preference of immersion, as well as higher torque, I have always set my Simucube1/2 current/amps to max, even in old MMoS days, and used iRacing slider to adjust ffb ‘gain’ to suit me.

This allowed to have max ffb effects during crashing, whilst manageable torque in normal on-track situations.

If, however, you do not want the immersion/safety-risk etc due to that specific way, then you simply reduce the current/amps in TD window to whatever you prefer during crashes/off-track excursions, adjust in-game gain (iRacing slider) to the normal racing torque you want. If you start clipping, simply adjust TD amps a bit higher, then raise the torque-slider in iRacing (or reduce gain in your sim of choice) until you’re happy.

Like said, there is no single generic right or wrong here, it is pretty much personal preference :wink:

Cheers,
Beano

39

Beano, this is what folks are trying to understand. Clipping at what, signal or HW level?
Clipping notifications in TD are signal based.
By the way Mika described it, we don’t have to worry about HW clipping even at low MMC.
Why, because we never get there as signal will clip first or some other reason?

Thank you

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40

Dependant on MMC vs MCC, the higher the setting (read current/Amps) in TD settings, the lower the chance of actual clipping in-game (signal-level), as most people will run a correspondingly lower game ‘gain’ to reach the normal driving-torque they’re after.

Mika’s feedback addresses (correctly) the safety-aspect of dd wheels, hence his recommendations. I don’t care about those issues, as it will be my own fault if I get injured, due to obstinance, or idiocy, or perhaps both. But for me, it is about immersion.

Like Mika has said, and what I have discussed ages ago in iRacing on the topic of HW clipping, in the DD wheel application, how it is implemented in IONI FW, there is no chance of actually clipping at all, due to the very long mechanical time-constant of these bigger servos, like small and large Mige, SC2 Sport/Pro and Ultimate.

Typical mechanical time-constant on these servos exceed 2300ms, there is no sim I know of that will induce these limits. Perhaps drifting, but then again, that was always the reason I ran the MCC very close to MMC, so as to minimise the hw clipping. (Also, a too-small psu (in original osw) will also be able to induce hw clipping, but my feedback is based on the assumption that people are using properly sized components in their applications.)

For sim-Racing, like both Mika and I have stated, this is a non-issue, also one of the reasons we use peak-torque to define the max. capability of a specific wheel, provided it is using the GD drive-controller solutions.

Other suppliers, using different controllers and/or smaller servo-motors, May perhaps run into hw clipping issues.

Anyway, enough rambling from my end, set your wheel to what feels good for you, and enjoy it.

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