Hi guys, the Pro is mentioned to have a 22-bit encoder, while the cheap Chinese copies of Simucube use an 18-bit encoder, and reviewers note that Simucube has a better ffb. Ultimate is 24-bit, does that mean Ultimate has more detailed ffb, of course, if we set both to the same peak torque, or the ffb level is not related to the encoder and its purpose is more precise control. Anyone who went from Pro to Ultimate, do you feel any difference in ffb level?
Ive had mine since they first came out and can only say im glad i went with the Ultimate. No more guessing if the ffb could be better.
What did you have before the Ultimate?
I believe Beano @phillip.vanrensburg, compared Pro and Ultimate. I do not think that besides more torque there was any significant difference, but may be he can chime in with more details.
The encoder resolution is not the only thing that counts. In fact, I just got a SC2 (this week actually), coming from a SIM-PLICITY SW20v3 (so basically something like a OSW, a controller box with a Mige130ST Motor). This kit has a 8M encoder (SC2 is 22 bit so 4M). So double of the SC2. One guess which base is smoothest. Not only that, the SC2 has been like a revelation. Itās amazing. I thought my SW20v3 was good (I head it for over 4 years), but the SC2 is just another world.
Donāt just look at the specs is all Iām saying. The software that drives the SC2 is perhaps even more important.
Yep, I did run them side by side for a while. If youāre not big on torque, I donāt believe with current Gen sims you will see a substantial difference between the two, especially once you start using filters.
As I would recommend one should.
If youāre Hercules and need to run higher torque than most, the Ultimate will give a bit of extra overhead and allow you to run closer to 1:1 with a lot of cars, without clipping, especially in iRacing.
The range of 0.65 to 0.75:1 on the Ultimate will be plenty strong, avoid most clipping and satisfy most needs. Test before you buy, if you can, see what torque-level suits you, and go for that one. Pro is an awesome dd wheel, would easily be my pick, if I were in most peopleās shoes.
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That contradicts what @Mika says about clipping, that the strength of the torque from the Simucube (all steering wheels) has nothing to do with clipping, and clipping is from in-game settings only. So Iām a bit confused know.
Thank you for the clarification. Regarding current simulators, if I understand you correctly, encoders with such a high resolution are some kind of headroom for future simulators with a higher resolution ffb signal?
Hardly, 22bit encoder already provides 4,194,304 discrete positions. Itās already an overkill precision for all current and foreseeable future sims.
Main advantage was more powerful motor and some Ultimate specific (beta) filters, not sure their usefulness though. Single PSU was also a plus but not anymore since Pro R2 moved to single PSU as well.
Wy back when i started with a g25 then g27 then multiple Thrustmaster wheels. First DD was OSW 30nm then the Ultimate.
Its simple if youre already using all your wheels available torque it will clip if asked to do more. Usually this is more noticable on lower torque bases. Probably the wrong term but the end result is the same as clipping in the game.
I do not believe motor clipping is a thing.
With weaker motor for more torque you need to increase base signal level which may lead to clipping. But still, this is signal clipping, not HW.
Thanks for all your answers, since Iām not a professional, it seems like pro would be the best choice for me (sounds a little funny :D). Another question @phillip.vanrensburg, @Mika, are you planning to release a new base? I will understand if you prefer not to answer, but I have been saving for a long time and will be disappointed if a new base appears after my purchase.
If money is tight, check used market, can save a few quids.
There are/were few for sale on RD.
OK so it depends on the Gameā¦
A game that uses a Baseline Gain FFB System can clip the wheel by over saturating the input for the wheel. But a Game like iRacing that uses an attenuation model for FFB will never clip at the wheel and will be limited in the gameā¦
You will want more power if you are trying to gain strength from the wheel without inducing or having the software cause clipping as without the strength in the wheel your āAt the Wheelā strength may be at or near the limits of the wheel so when you move to a car or hit a bump or something along that line you can clip losing detail in the event.
As far as to getting back to the Resolution of encodersā¦ Windows only accepts 16bit resolution through its Joystick interface so any wheel beyond that would generally be providing the maximum positional data that can be seen by the game so an 18, 22, or 24bit encoder all would be well beyond this limitā¦ The difference though will come in filtering and where and how those filters are appliedā¦ If the filter required positional data for its calculations then the Higher resolution will help that filter be calculated more precisely.
This Generally means that the application of those filters will be more analog which leads to additional smoothness.
If you do not use filtering or very minimal filtering you may not even notice a differenceā¦ though it would be hard to notice a difference between 18 ā 24 bit anyway. So the Maximum Power is really the only thing that would significantly change.
I once read from Simucube 2 that, in an ideal situation, the wheel lets the signal untouched and delivers it as fast as possible to the driver (the steering wheel).
The advantage of more torque to me is that I can drive whatever car and with the steering torque the car has in real world. Fe a F1 car from the time they didnāt have power steering, or GT cars producing high numbers of torque maybe exceed 17Nm of a Sport. So with a Sport it would be impossible to get the 1 to 1 feeling.
If a car has 10Nm of torque at the steering wheel, wouldnāt it be realistic to have this as output from the game, and as output from the wheel?
I think that this 1 to 1 output is then too low when you have to compensate the fact that the wheel is the only source for information, the wheel alone also should inform you about car wheels locking/slipping from brakes, throttle, or longitudinal slips/vehicle dynamics. To make this up itās maybe necessary. Thatās why active pedals, solutions calculating this and inform you through rumble signals are such an interesting project.
Finally, sophisticated in-game settings, which letting you adjust the way throttle acts (wet, linear, agressive), adjustments for differential Aso also help to move you away from getting all information from a single source (the wheel). Simply because you get more from the pedals, while you can still feel it at the wheel aswell.
My understanding is that clipping is from in-game. This is what you also say, or do you say that Iracing is different?
You misinterpreted what I said. Mika and I am 100% on the same page wrt clipping. A higher torque servo will allow you to set the iRacing clipping threshold to a higher level, I.e, less clipping.
Clipping comes from the game, not from the DD wheel. If the FFB setpoint exceeds the āmaxForceā level you have set for your wheel, the ffb will flatline and feel like ice, or a rubber-band at that point, as there will be no variation in the signal at that point, and it will feel like a simple constant force of xx NM, whatever the maxForce setting is.
If you set a higher maxForce signal, then clipping is reduced, and vice versa. You can read Brionās explanations over at iRacing.
All the Chinese copies donāt use the encoder like simucubeā¦ They are a sort of hall sensorsā¦ As they have already told you, however, the difference is not only there but also in the electronics and how they work. As I have already written in another place I am preparing a video comparing my pro with three different simagic U Used directly by the owners at their home in which I show the difference in control of the two motors, said between us here in confidence The simucube is normally controlledā¦ If you take your hands away Simagic goes crazy in all three casesā¦ It is a test that I thought up only to make it clear that there is a huge difference in control,Visible to everyone if we remove our hands, but perceptible only to those who know how it should behave when they put their hands on it, Especially because in all Chinese engines they push a lot with the filters precisely to keep the little control at bay.Unfortunately it is an inconvenient truth, and in small talk you can say what you want, I also understand those who say they donāt notice it because the steering wheel on the right and left does it anyway This does not mean that the difference exists and is tangible
Oscillation is the problem that exists in any DD wheel unless sim controls it via Dynamic Damping aka Gyro like Kunos, regular DI Damping, or some additional measures taken in signal post process (Low Latency Filter, Constantly Operated Damping).
Degree of oscillation can be different depending on servo controller but it will be there, encoder itself cannot solve it completely.
But this discussion is about Pro vs Ultimate, not Simucube vs Simagic.
I had read that they were talking about Chinese encoders and I wanted to explain that they donāt use the same ones as simucube. Ro vs ultimate, I think there is a difference but not appreciable by 90% of peopleā¦ Or for home use
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