Could someone explain to me what the gamma filter would achieve here? Why do you want to adjust the low-force feeling? I guess my view is that the torque I should feel should always be based on a physics calculation made by the simulator, and I’m not sure I see the value of selectively altering low-force feeling.
(I feel the same way about the static force reduction)
there is a big difference in methodology between the Recon and irFFB in the way the interpolation works… If I remember correctly irFFB taks an averaging for smoothing only as well (if Set) it pulls from the Telemetry 360Hz feed (which isn’t exactly fully 360Hz based on the explanation (its a repeat process). Where the Recon filter is designed to take into account all aspects of the signal including acceleration in its interpolation which better retains the underlying primary signal and its immediacy so it tends to be more responsive than a typical smoothing model. You can run irFFB and recon but generally recon will not need to be as aggressive as it is recreating an already smoothed signal.
The problem with signal gain especially for a sim is that there is a large possibility that you will be boosting completely unwanted signal traits. IE harsher signals will get even harsher. this is why the power model of the simucube was chosen in that it generally OTHER than the Recon filter doesn’t mess with the signal at all. The most liniar method of amplifying the signal is in the Drive system so by controlling the Amperage delivery directly it more effectively and linearly amplifies the game signal. As a side not it is also more energy efficient as the drive system doesn’t always run ready to deliver full power.
Gamma is what you are really wanting to be able to boost a range of signals. Only issue there with regard to a wheel is that it can’t tell what the signals are coming from so you boost not only the signals you may want but everything around those as well… WHICH is also the reason why the Notch filter is so HARD to set up as it acts on a specific frequency and then you can set the cone by which frequencies to either side of the primary are affected.
irFFB does a little bit of what you want but it is more pinpointed as it reads the car telemetry to boost things like suspension effect or Slip cues… however, it does this ad a cost as it takes processing time form actual signal generation to do this.
This sort of explains @SleipnirRacing question as well
The don’t but DO at the same time… They don’t if you use proper strengths with them but do need it if you don’t partially because the wheel mechanism is so heavy. using 5Nm to turn a light wheel set-up is much easier than using 5Nm to turn one that weights a couple lbs more (wheel mechanism = armature, extensions, Wheel plate, Wheel, QR’s, oct…
There is a place for a gamma control and I do belive that it is a filter that would be much better suited to Sport and average Pro users than ultimate users for the reasons mentioned… You don’t NEED gamma adjustments when you are running the wheel at realistic strengths so it is actually a little counter use case to have it on the Ultimate as most who buy that WILL be shooting for realism. I am not sure if the Gamma control in th Ultimate allows for multi point adjustment or if it is a singular adjustment but this may be a point of separation that could be between consumer (Pro/Sport) and the ultimate is that maybe the Pro/Sport offer single point game control where the ultimate offers multiple point adjustment (for more precise calibration)
The simplest explanation from me is that all steering feel is subjective, even in real life.
On top of that no current Sim feels anything like the real car across any amount of wheel bases.
One of the biggest things you can modify is the relative strength/resistance at the center compared to the increasing resistance cornering.
I used to think that gamma(low force boosting) made sense ONLY to make weaker wheel bases gain some strength where they lack the most, thinking it would be “correct” on high end wheel bases.
This I have found is both wrong, since most Sims are adjusted towards low end wheel bases, and also it is only a small part of it.
The real reason gamma is important is that it makes it possible to adjust how strong the center feels VS how strong the forces are felt when cornering.
You can set the gamma low to have low forces at center and a huge difference in the force feel VS when cornering and you can set it higher to make the center stronger and the force on cornering less, relatively speaking. This makes for a much more realistic feel to me.
Many Sims currently have very weak center force when driving even at high speeds. Try the new gt3 in Rfactor2 on the sc2, for example.
I can help it a little by upping friction, dampening and inertia, but really I would get much better ffb by being able to up the low force boosting instead.
To me nothing is worse than a high end wheel base, like the sc2, with a center force in a sports car way weaker than any real car, while much stronger than any real car on cornering.
Unf. that cannot be adjusted either way without the gamma filter.
I hope this makes sense. It is all very subjective, so you can easily agree/disagree to how you want it to feel, but the gamma makes it possible for you to adjust more to your liking.
What you are aiming for sounds more like min force.
Have you used Gamma function in AC/ACC, does it actually do what you are expecting?
Nothing to do with min force.
That’s what people used to use to tighten center.
Right, I was also exaggerating saying “nothing to do with”. It could even be the same, depending on implementation.
Right now there is no way to make a fuller center and less forceful cornering force on the sc2 when running rfactor 2 or iracing.
That is what this is about.
I encorage you to play with Gamma and may be even LUT in AC to see if it indeed delivers what you expect.
I would need to play with the SC2 gamma filter to know if the SC2 gamma delivers what I ask.
Not the AC version, however it might work.
I have programmed my own LFB filters and also used the one in Ams2 to great length.
I am not sure if you are saying that you disagree the gamma filters help with what I am saying they do.
If that is not what you are saying, then I don’t understand what you are contributing.
Please take no offense by my statement, but we have misunderstood each other before.
The point for me is:
I need a filter that allows me to adjust the center force strengths(weak force) relative to cornering forces(strong force).
The gamma filter should usually do exactly this, imo.
If that is not the case for the current SC2 gamma filter, I would still like an implementation for this exact use.
This function and more advanced LUT exist in both Kunos titles today, but to my knowledge only used by consumer wheel users.
I have tried it, it makes things feel odd and wrong on DD, thus my recommendation to try it to see if it’s actually the right fit for you.
There is a reason DD users do not bother with those.
Okay, I think I follow. You want to downregulate the forces at low steering angles compared to those at high. I don’t exactly see why though. Making it feel more smooth is one thing (limiting slew rate is good for this), but the torque is calculated by the simulator and is probably our best bet at how strong it “should” feel at any point (at least in, say, iracing, whose philosophy is that there are no fudged effects, just the calculated torque).
You say it doesn’t feel realistic but I don’t know enough about the specific racecar you’re talking about (or its setup or power steering setting etc). Do you have specific experience that you’re trying to recreate?
That kind of functionality does not, objectively, make anything wrong or incorrect.
It is a misconception that DD wheel bases represent the ffb in any “correct” fashion. Most games have been adjusted to feel alright-ish on lower end wheel bases.
But it is completely subjective. For you some sim might feel best with whatever gamma it offers set at 0.
That does not mean it would carry across to other sims, let alone other users.
There is nothing “wrong” or “incorrect” about a gamma filter. It is just another way to adjust the overall feel to your liking.
Also there is no chance that the titles you mention have the ffb set up to feel realistic on your wheel base, but there is a chance you are happy about how they feel, to you, as they are. Good for you.
To me rfactor 2 has cars that don’t feel real and this filter could help me and others.
So if I read it right you just assume it would help without ever trying it out?
Hej SleipnirRacing,
It just is a filter that can help me fill in a weak center for example.
Like the Ferrari in rfactor 2.
Doing this in a different way than adding friction/dampening/inertia, which just makes the wheel more resistant really, NOT based on the forces from the physics.
The gamma maintains the forces from the physics and allows me to fill the center on cars that feel nothing like real cars with extreme low force center.
The issue is that FFB is currently not produced at the level the DD wheel bases can actually deliver by any Sim.
as Aris of Kunos said in a recent video, to answer a question about why we see pilots always correcting the steering wheel even on straights, he said it is simply due to the car insane vibrations. modern cars - especially race cars - are made in a way that the steering wheel, when not under cornering load, can be moved literally with a finger, and it is all due to the modern suspension geometry mechanism.
so, take away from the equation all external forces generated by the car acting on the wheel that obviously we don’t have in simracing (not even with the most powerful motion system ever) and there you have it, a super light wheel around the center just as it is in real life.
Andrew,
??
Please understand I have programmed ffb for quite a while now and have changed my opinion on these matters accordingly, several times even.
Not sure where your experience comes from, and am not asking.
You seem to not accept that the filter can help achieve certain things that some people find hugely beneficial towards achieving a more realistic feel. I am still not sure why… And I really am not asking.
SuperMonaco,
Not correct to generalize like that.
Take any BMW and put it in sports mode.
Take any car and remove power steering.
On top, it is subjective how you prefer it.
If you want a super light center, then that’s great, but it should now mean I have to drive it too.
it’s not a matter of taste, it is how a real wheel behaves in a race car.
also, I tend to believe Kunos physics guru in those matters…what do you say?
Hmm,
I don’t drive acc and ac much, so wouldn’t object. As I remember acc actually has a strong center, so not sure why you’re talking about a weak center from their perspective…
My issue is with certain cars in rfactor 2 mostly.
Even more my issue is the simple gamma filter would possibly help me fix it.
Look, if you guys don’t need it, great, don’t use it, but can I have it please?