Good to know, thanks.
I am starting to think somethings actually wrong with my sc2 pro.
A friend of mine has a podium dd1 and runs a Ferrari at around 0.3 in game and 100% in fanatec settings.
I need to run that same car at 0.55-0.60 in game and 100% in TD to have it feel strong enough.
I was planning to sell my base, but before I do I need to figure out if something is really wrong with it.
Is there any way to test/check the output and or quality of it that can tell me if itās about right VS def. NOT right?
Any help appreciated.
iRacing probably uses Fanatecās proprietary API to communicate FFB signal to Fanatecās driver, and for that reason the FFB level might be different especially if you use the arbitary scale and not the Nm based slider in iRacing.
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Sorry, I wasnāt being clear that this is in rfactor 2, not iracing.
But also, is there a simple way to check if the sc2 is functioning close to spec, nm wise?
Same applies to that.
Ok, makes, sense that there are a few differences that could lead to this. I guess also the controller file etcā¦
Still, can I easily check the sc2 is performing about right, nm wise, somehow?
You are probably noticing the Activeness differenceā¦ The SC2 Pro is much more natural in feeling and is not as abrupt as the Fanatic DD1/2ā¦ it is the abruptness that give a feeling of alot of strength at times and the less abrupt the wheel is the more you actual strength you can use because you are not being beat up by the wheelā¦ I have now run both wheels the DD2 and SC2 on the same set-up as well as My Large Mige SC1 and the SC1 and SC2 are alot more subdued in their reactions to communication from the game. The Fanatec have alot of torque from the servo so it gets up to speed much faster but in my opinion it is actually too fast for realismā¦ and intern causes you to have to turn down the strength to NOT get fatigued so quicklyā¦ problem is when you turn down the wheel in the game in some cases you turn down information as well which would mean that even though they feel the same strength at the differing levels from the game the Simucube is actually getting more information at a usable level than the Fanatec would.
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Hi bsohn,
Thank you for your great and detailed explanations yet again!
I was always wondering about active VS natural.
So does natural basically mean āslower reacting, so feeling more realā?
If that is the case then would the more active solutions not actually be more correctly performing in relation to the delivered ffb signal? Faster to provide the requested force?
And this is yet again the issue, that the ffb from all current sims simply is not catering for such speedy response yet?
This is a problem for all DDās currently I think, but maybe the fastest DDās are exposing this issue the most? While the slower DDās actually feel nicer, at least for now.
A high resolution encoder might be more important on the faster/active solutions I am guessing, but these bases prob. all have plentyā¦ In the same train of thought that means the filter processing frequency is also more important on the faster/more active solutions. Again I assume itās prob. plenty high for all mentioned solutions here too.
A last question: Do the active solutions, while feeling less natural, feel more full and detailed around the center(bc of more pronounced weak forces)?
Maybe this could add a bit to the speed discussion:
Note the posting date, note the overwhelming response, ponder over the reason. 
Natural doesnāt really mean slower reacting as they will both react at the same time but it has more to do with how quickly it gets to the result of that reaction. With this more natural feeling servos will tend to smooth the transitions between different set points as they may NOT actually reach full torque before they get a new commanded torque level to reachā¦ This in the Sim World is kind of a good thing as it gets rid of a lot of the erratic spikes in feedback due to the sampling rate of games 60Hz for iRacing, 360 for some othersā¦ but no where near the analog of Real steering. As well in real life you have alot of muting of the road as there are bushings, links, flexing, ext that generally is not modeled in sims that dampens out the steering.
One of the main things to remember is that the way that FFB works is both in reaction to the game and to YOU however, real life steering only reacts to the road (which would be the game) this also affects the feel of activeness. since in essence with active FFB you are causing the wheel to react so you can be a bit ahead of the wheel where in a real car you are always the one reacting.
I honestly DONT think that the current FFB model will be able to properly support a super speedy servo appropriately as it just cannot update it fast enough to keep it absolutely smooth. and it will be a long time before we would even have processing capabilities to process things that fast as the update speed would probably have to well exceed that which current USB can achieve.
In anycase there is a place for the active wheels as they work really well for people who like to run at lower strength as they do enhance some of the information thereā¦ it just comes down to a Game feel as compared to a natural feel.
We are pretty close to the limits on encoder resolution only because windows actually limits the Encoder data so positionally we are limited to the 65K points of direct X but we can use the 4.3Million for filtering smoothnessā¦ We actually went through the encoder upgrade benefit with the SC1ās where the first were only 10000 points then we moved to 20000, then 40000, then 2.1 million and now we are at 4.3 million though the difference from the 2.1 to 4.3M really didnāt change feel too muchā¦ I actually have a 5.6M on my SC1.
As for center forces they do WHEN running force levels that would be attenuated when running lower power to the wheelā¦ i.e if you are running 5Nm to an active servo it may feel to have more detail than a 5Nm on a less active servo BUT if you turned that less active servo to 15Nm (lets say) the same detail would be present and smoother in the less active servo.
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The reasoning is Fanatec doesnāt have a slew rate adjustmentā¦ and other than the benefit of actually doing filter processing on the wheel itself (which I personally think is better) the dual processors donāt mean too much as Fanatec is deciding to use The Main Computer processing to do some more advanced filteringā¦ I personally like the SimuCUBEās Dual Processor design as it can keep everything onboard with one processor for signal processing and the other is for drive level control. It has been this way throughout the SC1 as it is just what it was since the IONI Drive had its own processing system and the discovery chip covered the interface and signal processing. but it keeps everything on unitā¦ I also have a Fanatec DD2 and was/am part of their Beta Testing program from November 2018 to well current (I guess) though I am not currently using itā¦ Right now I have the SC2 Pro on my rig that I boughtā¦ My primary wheel is a SC1 Large Mige.
This was supposed to be a reply to @Joern but somehow it replied to @kledsen
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Again thank you so much for your insights, greatly appreciate it!
It all now is stacking up to make sense for me.
Personally I would strive to put only the filtering that is important for the natural feeling on the device itself, plus potentially some very few filters, if any difference could be felt by having them there vs on the main computer.
But other than that, when no difference can ever be felt, itās easier to upgrade and future proofed to have as much as possible on the main computer, since a new processor or processor configuration change on the device would not require any work on these and the added complexity from running multiple processors could be avoided.
Iāve worked with those things for many years before in other domains, so I do hold strong opinions when it comes to the actual software dev/multiprocessor/complexities/simplest approach.
Not saying my personal opinion on it is any better than anything else, but it does make me think that the fanatec route is potentially both equally good as well as simpler + saving processor and development costs in their solution.
Only exception, to me, would be if all or almost all the filters being used really do feel better when executed on the device directly.
I havenāt really formed a full opinion yet, since I did not consider each filter & the importance of executing them pre or post the 65k limitation, only posting my initial thoughts.
Do you know if much of the active vs natural feeling of the fanatec DDās vs the SC2ās comes from the servos themselves? Or if itās strictly down to filtering algorithms?
yea there is potentially no REAL difference between the processing on the computer and the Device when done wellā¦ The issues though for me with the Fanatec implementation is that it tends not to be of great implementation as the filtering they so far have done actually talks to the DD wheel through Direct X effects rather than in itās own language. as well Personally I like to NOT have to have an extra program running on the computer while racing which is one of my gripes with even the SC2 and Automatic High Torque mode (the Fanatec is MUCH better at handling this problem than the SC2)ā¦ The other thing with having of course the software on the external computer is you are at the whim of Microsoft Breaking it 
- well or the developer temporarily breaking it with a bad driver. The firmware all on device also makes it MUCH to upgrade as everything is stored on your device, You donāt even NEED to have software to run it (well except for the SC2 High Torque Modeā¦ But with my SC1 I can take it to another computer, Download Nothing and have it ready to run (true plug and play).
onto the Servos, MOST of the activeness/Naturalness comes down to servo choiceā¦ Fanatec went with an out runner style servo which are naturally very High torque with lower Amperage draws to get to that torque. This would tend to make the servo more active and it does. it is probably almost more active than the old SC1 Small Mige which was a pretty active unit but probably not as active as a unleashed Stepper motor might be. The servo wind, weight, and magnet density all have a significant effect on the inherent nature of the wheel and it can be adjusted but is VERY hard to change through filtering as the Filtering in a drive system is Mainly there to correct for minor servo traits to mimic the signal it is given as accurately as possible. We however also use the filters to imparts āfeelā to the system but sometimes you just canāt CHANGE the inherent natureā¦
I attempted this with the SC1 Small and Large Mige where I tried to make the large as active and the small as deadened and while the large could get reasonably active but turning down everything it could never quite get to the level of the small. however when I tried to deaden the small It could get pretty good but to get it to where it should have been it became over filtered and became a bit sluggish and unresponsive.
One of the very nice things about the SimuCUBEs is the amount of filtering offered to the userā¦ as it does allow you to get a wider range of feel and actually push the servos a bit further across the range if desired.
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Right, good points!
And enlightening on your filtering attempt to get the feel from other kinds of servos. Very interesting and makes perfect sense.
When it comes to the filters offered on the SC2 pro I do appreciate some of them, but some of the most important ones are in a pretty bad state, imho, so I would think fanatec DDās filterings are at least equally good, in total.
Recon: Does not feel as good as irffb smoothing when running iracing, for example. This is running irffb at 60hz, so should feel at least as good using the recon straight without irffb. But irffb smoothing simply feels better. This is a shame, since that means all other sims I am running with a not good smoothing implementation(recon).
Gain: To me suffers, as you know, because I simply still would prefer the unit always running at full power & the scale happening on the input signal, exactly to get low force quality at all times.
Missing gamma on sport/pro: A critical one to have to adjust the low force feeling(center feeling mostly) in sims like rfactor2 & iracing. To me completely bonkers to not have access to that & I donāt think many people are aware of the adjustment this would offer to those driving those sims and that itās left out on sport/pro on purpose.
Reg. that gamma I am(was) even considering writing a usb sniffer, make adjustments & then post as virtual usb or whatever could be done to modify it.
But I have no time in my life for that & am honestly extremely annoyed by this viewpoint of Graniteās. Such a simple filter not on a āproā wheel base. Jesus.
Sorry for going there yet again.
I value your feedback, insights & information big time,
Thank you again,
-Karsten
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Quick comment, @bsohn and @kledsen: I am new to the DD topic, thus I just donāt understand everything written, but I love to learn.
So thank you for being able to read your communication and learn. 
If I got it right, Brionās experience confirms your demand of gamma control, also appears logical from my laymanās point of view.
So letās hope your repeated and backed plea reaches the granite hearts and souls, Karsten.
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Thanks Joern for pitching in,
Yes, I will continue to plea for those changes until the time I actually am no longer an SC2 owner. Only my limited time & the effort required to switch and set up some new hardware/software is holding me back right now, I am afraid.
I have my eyes on a few options until then, helped by @bsohn as well & am also just holding my breath for the slight chance that the course of the Granite ship will change slightly until my time allows the trigger pull 
The Ultimate has the gamma control. However, weāve seen that people are not actively using that filter so it is not revolutionary filter that should be put to all models at this point. Extra settings are continuing to confuse users all the time.
Hey Mika,
Thanks for pitching in.
This is unf. exactly what I disagree to 100%.
Users buying SC2ās are not normally newcomers to the market, so I donāt agree to this simplification approach.
Making choices based on how much things are being used instead of on actual value for the individual is a mass market approach, that to me is badly suited to a high end product for people that know what they are doing.
On top of that, limiting yourself from the use & feedback you would get from more users combining more filters will make it harder for yourself to progress & compete in the longer run. You will simply not be able to make informed decisions on which filters to mix & match for any given title.
I agree it is not revolutionary, it is instead a big impact adjustment for those titles.
Since you already have it implemented there is no added cost to allowing people to use it. So why not allow it? It would provide more value to the few, happier people like me & actually add with important discussions for people that donāt know what it can do and might be missing out.
In general too people seek help & many are jumping in to help, which is great.
If you can just provide a code for the few people that asks for it to unlock it, then that would be fine as well.
It is weird to protect āin the knowā users from themselves. We are not talking about G-25ās that dad bought for his 7-year old
I cross my fingers that you will change the policy around this one.
Thanks again for straight up answers! (And truly impressed with your willingness to jump in with fast responses, no doubt this is of great value for many people here)
-Karsten
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@Mika: Please let me tell you a short story I heard during my perception psychologist education.
Thereās a well-known Zwieback (rusk) brand in Germany, āBrandtā.
Their packages show a picture of a little child, smiling. Maybe you know that kind of hard bread.
One day, the manufacturer wished to expand his business to a small Asian country.
They knew their packaging was good, so they also used it in that small Asian country.
But they didnāt sell. It seemed like nobody wished to buy their product.
So they did some research - and found out that the majority of the native people couldnāt read. Thus it had become a habit to show pictures of the ingredients on the package.
You may imagine what the potential buyers thought when they saw a picture of a little child - as the ingredient.
They changed their package - and sales worked all of a sudden.
Lesson learned: Something working perfectly well at one place does not mean it also works at another place. And vice versa.
So if you didnāt see high usage of that gamma control with Ultimate owners, it could be quite different with Pro users.
And if the Ultimate owners donāt care about that feature - because they donāt even use it, you wonāt face the danger of proud Ultimate owners getting upset about that exclusive feature now also offered to the common Pro or even Sport user.
Donāt you agree?
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I personally donāt mind exta Gamma filter, but will never use it, same as Iāve never used Gamma in AC or ACC as prefer linear response as intended by physics engine,
DD wheels donāt need low signal boost like weakly consumer wheels, same as they donāt need Min Force. I believe most DD veterans are subscribed to the same view.
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