Simucube 1 vs simucube 2


#261

Here is the CORRECT History about how this came into being, all the way to the end of Simucube 1.

[quote=from iRacing]
Introduction
Older Bruteforce threads based on Argon and then IONICube hardware

  1. Argon -> http://members.iracing.com/jforum/posts/list/3293316.page
  2. Bruteforce 2 (IoniCube) -> http://members.iracing.com/jforum/posts/list/3312320.page

History -IONI
I had a first go at DIY DD FFB when a friend posted a link to what Bernhard Berger was doing in Germany, with the Argon drive. At that time I was playing around with his API, and shortly thereafter, MMoS came onboard and released a FW to be used on the STM32F4 Discovery evaluation board.

It was around that time I hosted the Argon build log here, the original Bruteforce, and quite a few guys jumped onboard to experience the joys of DD FFB.[color=blue] I will forever be thankful for the efforts of Bernhard Berger and Michael Moszkowics (MMoS), whose individual inspirations got me started me on this journey.[/color]

Around Q3 2014, Tero informed me they will do a new small compact drive controller, the IONI, aimed at the printer market. Well, I had some thoughts about this, and met with Tero and Aki late 2014, to discuss a few ideas over beers. I requested Tero to investigate if he could improve on the current 5-7A design spec of his original IONI ideas, and the new IONI, based in the 8x PCI-Express form factor was born.

The original design was based on the 4X PCI-Express form-factor size. We saw the first IONI’s with relative conservative Current (A) numbers, but today, there are several versions, and the ones we are interested in is the IONI Pro and IONI Pro HC. The former can do around 18A Peak-of-Sine, the latter, 25A, and very soon perhaps, we may even see 30A versions, if there proves to be a need.

One day though, I am hoping we might see a new (and open-source FW backwards compatible) all-in-one solution, similar to the old Argon, but based upon the STM32F407 processor that will contain our user open-source fw, and then the reliable and rugged IONI. All on one board, with an embedded PSU. Small, compact, powerful, self-contained, backwards compatible. Let’s see what the future holds :slight_smile:

History - SimuCUBE
Whilst both Argon and IONI projects made for a fun DIY DD FFB project, it was a laborious task, not easy for the average Joe to implement. Shortly after IONI was born, I started to think of ways to make the process simpler and easier, as well as improve on communications and efficiencies, et al.

In my mind, the best way to go forward was to have a simple motherboard, with an interface that can accept the IONI, and host all other functions onboard. It would require a single psu, have an advanced microcontroller onboard, reduced latencies and a host of other future features.

Key was that it had to (initially) support the current MMoS FW, but later allow for open-source fw development, and also support direct API control interface, if required.

Almost exactly 1 year after meeting with Tero and Aki of Granite Devices, we met over beers again.

I discussed my idea with them, and we brainstormed the features that I would like to see. I also ensured Tero it is a viable product for the DIY market, and as such, we moved from my concept idea, to a block diagram in the space of a few weeks.

Aki shared this and we discussed a few additions, to make the motherboard bullet proof, and Aki then went on to finalise the pcb design.

At the next meeting in Finland, and over sauna, beers and pizza, I was presented with a prototype, which I have since thoroughly tested. The Indiegogo campaign was kicked off, to big success for Tero and his team, whilst allowing is FYI types to get our fix.

[b]I would like to give a special thank you to Tero, Timo, Aki and Esa, for listening to my crazy ideas, and bringing this product to the market. We, the community, owe you a big thank you.

A big shout-out to Mika Takala who later joined and is now the main brain behind the open-source FW initiative[/b]

[color=blue]Edit: Check out Bogeyman built based on the SimuCUBE and IONI Pro HC hardware - the latest in my DIY endeavours… [/color]

http://members.iracing.com/jforum/posts/list/0/3581690.page#10797836

With that said, below a basic work log with steps on how to DIY your own.

The original concept idea:

[/quote]

From that, it quickly moved to reality:
[/quote]


#262

Thanks Beano.
Were you not involved into SC2 design, how things evolve from SC1 to SC2?


#263

Hi Andrew,
I was involved once again with the concept idea, proposing this to GD in November 2016 after the SimExpo in Germany, as I believed this to be the best way forward to ensure we will get the best DD wheel at affordable price, but also with the view that GD should make something from their efforts, as we would like to see R&D moving forward.

I have seen first-hand in industrial automation that investment in R&D is extremely important, as without it, things stagnate. But, in order to do this effectively, it means making the environment more controlled, with a manageable product portfolio.

If we go the way some of the suggestions above asks to, eventually things will die, as it is not sustainable. Then we certainly lose a key-player and driver in this market.

Without a doubt, if it was not for the development of Ioni and Simucube, Fanatec would have not been interested in DD wheels at all. We would have had the choice of the extremely expensive Bodnar on one end, vs Accuforce on the other.

Now we actually have a solution in both SC1 and SC2 that covers the complete spectrum. Plus, Thomas jumped on top and we also have another DD option available. So win-win for us, yes?

It needs to be reiterated - with new Simucube 2, users of Simucube 1 have lost NOTHING!! Actually, the benefits from SC2 development that can be ported to SC1, will be done! A win-win.

The other alternative was that SC1 remained on MMoS and die a slow death due to no development on FW side ever. That would have been sad :frowning:

Instead, GD invested a lot of their time and money to develop this, for the benefit of us, the community. As such, I am terribly sad to see this general back-lash over quite many forums. People are free (and are indeed!) encouraged to contribute to the SC1 ongoing FW development. GD will push the FW to its limits, that’s for sure.

Please remember, I am talking from my perspective as a simple end-user/community member. I for one would like to see GD succeed with SC2, receive our support, as surely, it is deserved after the massive efforts they have put in.

Over and out, enough from my side.

Cheers,
Beano


#264

Very well said Beano!


#265

I think the boys at Granite devices have done an awesome job over the last 5 years to advance the DD wheel.

I also think the Sim community has also done an awesome job of rewarding Granite Devices for their efforts in the form of steady sales and what must be quite alot of extra gross income. Whether it made a huge difference to the bottom line may be another story in itself.


#266

This is another way of saying things … more understandable by SC1 users without technical knowledge or the development of the project itself, as I for example.
In my opinion an explanation of this type before the release of SC2 and perhaps a previous notice of the next product would have prevented some discomfort in the community of users and last minute buyers, perhaps …
Anyway, we have to look forward. I have believed in SC1 and I would like to believe in SC2 … hopefully !!
Thanks for the explanations.
Greetings.


#267

@sv1 beta testing a software and providing feedback and sniffing out bugs doesn’t count as contribution for you?


#268

What would be a really nice way of customers who purchased in the last 6 months without any knowledge of the Simucube2 (most would have waited for the SC2) would be if Granite allowed a buy back with a percentage twords a credit to a Sc2 if customer had proof of receipt in the last 6 months, they paid shipping back to GD of there motors and parts, and maybe paid a one time fee of $250 or a reasonable amount of no more than 25% the price of current Sc2 motor they would be getting. 10nm goes to 17nmSC2, 20nm goes to 17Nm SC2( or pays additional to upgrade further to the SC2 25nm) and the 30nm goes to the 25nm( or can upgrade to the SC2 ultimate.

What that says Mika, (I was a project manager before a neck injury)

We have listened to people’s concerns, and we acknowledge that up to a certain time period prior to the Sc2 release that some of our loyal customers would have waited for the Sc2 release instead of buying a mige motor with granite parts.

What your doing is showing them empathy and letting them know that you listened to people’s concerns and though you could not accommodate everyone, your working with recent purchases.

Explain that you (Mika) would be upset also if you just purchased a wheel and had you known another was coming out, and is going to be better that you yourself probably would have waited if you had another wheel to use till Sc2 got released.

Your also showing them that you than worked on an alternative solution on how to help recent purchases on a upgrade to Sc2 without them feeling they paid 1-1/2x the price after upgrade fees. And that though they are spending a little more money to get the Sc2, Granite is also eating costs by compromizimg.

And by doing this you have gained the trust back in the community, and ask people that if they have ideas on what would make there Granite experience better, whether it’s Granite developing or partnering up with a wheel maker, or if it’s having changes to current Sc wheels, that you want there input, as without them the consumer, there would be no Granite. And with working together and being transparent that everyone wins.

Ps. I am not going to debate any replies, as I was simply giving an outside persons opinion to conflict resolution as I use to have to talk to unhappy customers and resolve there problems, even if it meant the company I worked for did not agree with the resolution. At the end of the day there has to be respect, understanding, and compromise at times.

Also, being I was a subcontractor at one time before taking the project manager job, and having to pay for my tools, liability insurance, workers comp, and eat the costs if my employees broke something, the granite community has to understand that Granite has to turn some sort of profit.

They have overhead. Whether it’s paying manufacturing employees, administrative employees, insurances, retail space to make the products, taxes, utilities, advertising( giving up profit to other companies to sell their products, so that company makes money) interest on loans, accounting fees. All this is paid before Mika gets a check!! Let me explain it more clearly, the wheels are expensive, but with all I just listed, Mika is not going to the bank with wheelbarrows of money for himself after all the above is paid. So you have to be realistic on expectations also.

Best Wishes,
Larry
Ps. I don’t even own a direct drive wheel yet. I plan to get the SC2 Pro. But I have enough understanding of how a business works, as well as be able to have empathy for customers who wished they knew about the Sc2 release and could have waited.

P.s.s it’s very late, sorry for the typos, I’ll proof it this evening…


#269

Gosh this bothers me. I just wonder why it’s different that a product was announced AND made available for preorder versus announcing a roadmap. Would the ‘community’ be less upset if they bought a SC1 and then two weeks later the SC2 was announced for…late 2019 release? You’d be in no different of a situation than now with your item being superseded, except you’d have the top-dog product for a longer period.

How GD is moving from component/software production to being a full stack vendor (albeit through partners) is another conversation that may upset people but not push the ‘personal injury’ buttons and as such is more interesting and valid in my opinion. Some lead time on company strategy may have lessened the whiplash effect of reading a product release, but seems we all just assumed GD would be making and improving circuit boards and didn’t predict a larger portfolio was coming, along with a pivot away from a predominantly DIY platform. GD and Beano have addressed this, but it’s harder to hear over the roar of the crowd and the multitude of forums etc.

Anywho backlash is backlash, we all feel entitled to things in life to varying degrees, some things just frustrate me to see. And I’m the Cynical one


#270

it does help.
but as for what it’s worth to a company or product, i’ve worked with many QA testers and i can tell you most of the issues are found within a hour or two.

so you’re looking at a refund/discount for time spent of ~$15-40 USD at most.

granite spent months of development time creating the firmware. way more than $40 worth.

you got the best firmware available for sim racing, for FREE! and don’t feel like you came out ahead on this arrangement?


#271

Some SC1 or OSW owners may consider upgrading to SC2 but, I get the impression that quite a few are now sitting on the fence, waiting to see how things compare among both SimuCube 2 and the Fanatec Podium series. Each offers some pro’s and con’s and we have very little information about how the in-hand results will compare, among other aspects.

Will either system offer enough benefit to lure would-be buyers (and/or SC1 / OSW owners) into making an upgrade? How much will brand-loyalty or eco-system influence such decisions? Will some lean towards Fanatec based on the way SC2 was revealed? Time will tell and these things are always a gamble but, such is life.

I certainly can’t fault GD for making a better product and the transition from one version to another always comes with some pain in one way or another. Buying and selling inherently involves some risk but, I can appreciate that those who purchased a SC1 recently may be feeling pretty bad.

It’s certainly interesting times in the new DD-wheel market and it’ll be interesting to see how these developments affect the used market.

I wish GD the best of luck in their endeavor and remember, “Fortune Favors the Bold”.

As for the rest of us, we just have to choose how much some things bother us. It’s still an amazing time to be involved in Sim-racing. :smiley:


#272

@sv1

I don’t know if your whole reply is for me since i didn’t write anything about rebate.

Also giving price value for something that most of the people did willingly for the software isn’t right. When behind a software is a small team it needs all the help it can get. Because of the combinations it is not that easy to catch bugs.

Also don’t forget that the tool is also being used for the sc2 so it was the logical way for the company to move away from mmos. I don’t understand though why you are using caps for the word free.Did they ask a price for it and i didn’t pay , or you mean to tell me tha now is a bundled price for it with sc2? I haven’t tested them all to say it’s the best.

Good luck with the new product.


#273

As an owner of an SC1 Mige system, it is heartening to see GD showing an interest in not only continuing in the sim racing market, but to see that GD and Fanatec see enough potential in the market to invest considerable resources into expanding the market.

An SC2 coming out does not somehow make our SC1 systems obsolete, any more than a new car coming out makes the 2018’s obsolete. This is different from, say, the GPU market, in which a video card actually becomes pretty useless in new games a few years after release. In sims, the software infrastructure for FFB has remained stable in device support for years—it is the hardware which has advanced, and software has refined in response. I have no doubt that the SC1 will still feel great (with settings tweaks) on ACC 2, rF3, AMS 2. Yes, newer systems will be refined—but our wheels are not obsolete. I have a red Momo Logitech system from ages ago that still works on Assetto Corsa FFB (my kids use it). The T500 that came after that still works, too. Lots of people will enjoy ACC with a T500—nobody will enjoy ACC with an Nvidia 680 gpu.

This is actually a great example of capitalism expanding access with competition, a secondary, pre-owned market, and price segmentation in what was, a couple of years ago, an extremely expensive, unaffordable-to-almost-everyone DD experience. SC2, Podium, AF3, Bodnar 3, will make a great pre-owned market for SC1’s, Bodnars, and AF’s for many people to access the fun of DD wheels. This secondary market keeps makers of new products pressured to keep pricing reasonable relative to the used market, and all the while—the consumer benefits.

Carrying the automotive comparison on . . . in cars, the price difference between a Mustang GT and a BMW M3 is quite large. The level of raw performance difference is small, the refinement difference notable, the prestige difference (in some circles), significant. The incremental cost of increases in performance in cars is not proportional—a little improvement costs a lot. We see in this market a healthy segmentation developing such that, in short order, we will see really solid DD offerings (new and pre-owned) down in the $5-$700 ranges, top notch latest offerings for $1,200 up, and high end offerings in the stratosphere. The difference in performance will be modest, the cost to have “the best” will be high. This doesn’t, except in a delusionally-elitest mind—make a Mustang 5.0 somehow unworthy garbage.

I have gotten hundreds of hours of entertainment from the SC1. If I sell it for less than I paid in order to get an SC2, I will have made money on the deal, in my view, if I compare the cost of purchase with the use I will have enjoyed. Then again—I may just keep it and get hundreds more hours of enjoyment out of it with all the great sims that are out and in the offing.


#274

SC1 is an awesome piece of hardware, and the firmware and softwares are good enough for final customers , and allow us to play any sim we want to.

Maybe some people would be happier if 0.1.12 is named 1.12.

GD does not sell motors, or cables ,or cases for the electronics, e-stop buttons or power supplys nor encoders , only a couple of electronic boards inside the whole kit.

And even with that ,they make a good firmware / software and give support to a compound of users with a nightmare mix of diferent motors, encoders, power supplies, and people editing things on granity here and there.

Even if i understand how a recent buyer of an SC1 kit can feel, they have just purchased a premium kit for simracing,
And if you see how good and profesional the GD customer service is , they can be sure that they are in good hands.

The new Samsung S10 is here and soon there will be a Samsung S11, and a S12 , and 8k TVs, even if you bought a premium 4K Smart TV yesterday , there will be a new one ,and better, tomorrow.


#275

Hi Gonzas,

I thought you may want to know that you can get many of the things from Granite Devices that you thought you can not. They even used to sell the Acryluc cases.

https://store.granitedevices.com/search?controller=search&s=Power+supply+


#276

Thanks, my fault, i did write “sell” , i should say “make”

My point was that maybe you can not ask for a discount or something like that if you buy a kit to another 3rd party people, like Tomo, Augury or simplicity where only Ioni and simucube boards have been made by GD.

Thanks for the info Joe!


#277

You are welcome.
It is nice that they carry the extras for people in Finland who want to build their own.
It does not make much sense to have it air shipped if you can source it in your own country. :slight_smile:

I remember during the original kickstarter they even did assembled in Acrylic.


#278

This post isn’t really aimed at any individual post, but more a counterpart to the negativity from the announcement.
I have a small mige motor on my shelf, and I had a SC1 order waiting for shipment from GD when then announcement came. Did I feel overjoyed with the announcement?
I think it’s quite naturally to feel a little bummed when you invest in a product, and an improved version is announced right after. However I don’t feel like lashing out at GD over it.
That GD couldn’t tell more about planned road map and upcoming releases should be very understandable. It’s a small market, and you bet that other providers would have done whatever they can to close the door on GD’s market share had they known. This is more than an improved version, it’s a bit of a new direction, and presumably a big improvement of the overall product. Certainly much more a direct competitor of Fanatecs Podium than SC1 was. You simply do not tell your competitors about this, and letting existing customers know is the same as telling your competitors.
It seems quite clear that GD have no intentions of quitting support of SC1 anytime soon, your system will live for a long while. The odds are quite big that SC1 will get updates for a long time because of SC2.
It’s been told quite directly in the thread that there wasn’t much business in SC1. The margins of SC1 was small, and it was so quite deliberately I suspect to get a user base, and systems out in the hope for more contribution on the Opensource firmware project. It didn’t happen. The support picture have also been explained quite clearly. The combination of doing all development on the opensource project, not much margin on the simucube, and support variables that required a lot of resources, quickly add up to an unsustainable business model.
Then the choices are a different product direction, or simply drop the product all together.
I am quite happy that we have the SC2 announcement over EoL announcement of SC1.
Lessons learned on SC1 have been used in an attempt to create a better product and a better business case for GD. It is in all Simucube owners interest that there is a sustainable business case for GD doing this, and the simracing market is small.

We have a new company in simracing equipment with as far as I can understand considerable expertise on servo knowledge and putting that knowledge to use at optimizing a DD system.
They have tested a fair share of Servo’s, to find out which one is most suitable for purpose.
The knowledge and lessons learned from SC1 have been put to use to select criteria for testing.
They are also reaching out to developers to cooperate on wheel profiles.
I am quite excited about how all this will come together with SC2.

As I started this post with, I think a lot can relate to feeling a bit bummed having just bought a SC1 system when SC2 was announced, but that doesn’t mean that SC2 is a mistake. It doesn’t mean that GD wanted to screw you over. It doesn’t mean the SC1 will die tomorrow. It doesn’t mean your Mige will become SC2 with an upgrade path.

OSW changed the market, and SC1 changed the market. I am sure SC2 will change it too.


#279

Mika what version of SC2 are you testing the new software on?


#280

The only real business concern here would be that the lack of a modular upgrade path between sc1 and sc2 means that if a user was in the market to upgrade they wouldn’t be tethered to the Simucube family and likely would be exploring the competitors.

The caveat there being how many sc1 owners are in the market the to upgrade anytime soon? Outside of a few “must have” personalities, I’d wager not many.

With that, it made good business sense for GD to reduce the r&d overhead on an upgrade path and stick to having a new lineup.

As long as the FW upgrades on SC1 continue, there’s not much to complain about here.