I Have a 10.000 PPR Encoder on my small mige is it worth to upgrade to BiSS-C 4.2 Million


#1

i Have a 10.000 PPR Encoder on my small mige is it worth to upgrade to BiSS-C 4.2 Million?

i would love to hear some opinions / votes from some users who have upgraded from a lower res to a higher res encoder. since i am starting to consider to upgrade or not. what are the improvements you noticed.

  • Yes its really worth the upgrade from 10k ppr to Biss-C
  • No its not worth the money

0 voters


#2

really interested in this myself.

would be cool if people who where able to compare them could give their short opinion in which way it differs and what is improved and what is not.

while it is not the most expensive upgrade (140 bucks or something), its still money that i could also put to a new gpu or something else if i dont think it is worth it.


#3

I went from 10,000 ppr to Biss-C. Small Mige.

Is smoother. More detailed (maybe). Phases immediately on start up without back and forth movement.

Is it better? Yes.

Is it worth it? Marginal gains for cost.

Am I glad I did it? Yes. It is an improvement and it is also nice to have the most up to date version.


#4

I can only compare between the 10k & SinCos encoder and I would say that was worth the cost for me. I noticed improved smoothness and finer rubber-quality over the 10k, and reduced filter settings as a result. If you have gone from the 5K to the 10k encoder, it was a similar result imo.

The difference between the SinCos and the BISS-C seems like it would be less noticeable so I’m not sure I would make that upgrade and I haven’t seen any compelling arguments made for that step up so far. But, I do believe there are likely to be noticeable benefits going from the 10k to the BISS-C encoder. If the cost is not a big issue and you like the idea of knowing that you have the top-tier encoder, I would say go for it.


#5

You dont know what you are missing:) Gee that must hurt:grin:


#6

I was one of the few that voted no but in my case I am basing that on going to the SinCos encoder so bear that in mind.

There might have been a very subtle decrease in err ‘grainyness’ I suppose you could say but overall if you plonked me down in front of a properly set up 10k and sincos rig tbh I don’t think I could reliably tell you that there was any difference. In terms of gains I would maybe say that there was a 5% improvement but the 10k was already pretty good so with the benefit of hindsight I probably wouldn’t make the decision to upgrade again, I would probably instead have put that money toward buying the big mige for shits n giggles instead to feel the difference between the two mige versions instead…

Don’t get me wrong, I think there is some improvement but to me at least it was more subtle than the improvements going from MMOS to SimuCube FW.


#7

HI Sebastian,

It’s ultimately your decision, I went from the 10K to the SinCOS 2048 line 2.1M (CPR) resolution encoder from Tomo at SimRacingBay.

From what I have read, and from other’s feedback the only advantage between the Biss and the SinCOS is that when you first turn on the SimuCUBE with the SinCOS you have to have the wheel roughly centered before phasing - with the Biss you don’t.
But since my wheel is [like most] is connected to my PC via USB, it’s just been a habit to have it centered to avoid the USB cable being wrapped around the motor shaft when not in use.
Plus, I use the SimuCUBE desktop spring effect which makes that job easier.

For me it was worth the upgrade and it was a relatively inexpensive upgrade - $144USD at the time I bought it.

It’s not that the 10K encoder was bad, the SinCOS just added another level of finesse to the feel. It could be placebo, but I really feel that the higher resolution of the SinCOS (and the Biss) allows me to catch the car in situations that I may not have been able to with the 10K.

Also, as mentioned in some of your other posts, it would seem the SinCOS does not suffer from the levels of oscillation that you have tried to ‘dial out’ of your 10K encoder. That alone may be well worth the upgrade!

As other’s have mentioned, unless you can find a SinCOS encoder like mine for less money, then the Biss would make more sense.
Just don’t expect any driving differences between the two.

Isn’t the SimuCUBE still limited to 2.1M (CPR) resolution anyway?

If you are looking for just that little bit more from your setup, it’s a worthwhile upgrade.
Good luck!


#8

@GlobeSpy

the oscillation between the encoders might not bee the full story back then. the other person with the sincos has a much heavier wheel rim 2.15 KG fanatec bmw gt2 rim conversion vs my 900 grams Formula rim.

that extra added weight probably helps against the oscillations too!

i came to the conclusion that 10.000ppr is fine for me :slight_smile: since the problems only arise in ACC.
And i mainly play iracing. i would still love to test one so if someone has an old highres encoder he doesn’t use anymore you can always donate it to me for testing purposes and i will make an in depth video comparison of them.

and the ffb in acc is still broken imho :slight_smile: there is still too much built in damping.


#9

Do you think that 1kg or so would really make such a difference with such a powerful motor that could break bones?
I do not.

My OMP Superquadro is 0.98kg.

I’m sure that improvements with the SimuCUBE software will help improve these current issues over time, assuming that Granity Devices is pro-actively working with SIM software developers to ensure the SimuCUBE is being considered when they build their racing titles.
I’m sure that SimuCUBE could be independent, but collaborative work tends to have better results in most uses cases.

I haven’t spent much time with ACC, other than to just look at the new graphics engine.
I only race in VR - monitors are now a very strange sensation for me and I cannot ever go back, no matter how ‘pretty’ the graphics are.
I will spend more time after the next update on October 10th which has VR support.

I think they are in the right direction - I still worry about how their ranking system will work.


#10

Yes i think that 1kg makes a difference its just like adding 1 or 2 % damping or inertia in your simucube configuration tool. and that helps massively against oscillations.

and actually these motors arent that strong at all you can easily stall and hold them at max force.

just check from 1min40 ±
its only about 3.7 kgs of force per hand @ a 270mm wheel.

and this test was done with no damping friction or inertia
with that on it would probably be even easier to hold :stuck_out_tongue:


#11

Skeijmel,

My experience in going from 10,000 to SinCos was this: after installing it, I concentrated and thought I detected a difference in smoothness. But then, if I did, it was on the same level of the difference I experience when I drive for an hour, take a break and watch the news for 30 minutes, then go back to my wheel and am convinced something changed in my settings. It was that subtle. Which means. . . it was probably completely the difference in perception that comes from a coffee break.


#12

The difference you feel between the different encoders above the 10K will depend to a significant amount on how much filtering you use.

The 10K encoder is right about at the positional limit of being 1:1 with Direct Input meaning that positionally you will not see much if any difference in the units above 10K.

When you get into the SinCOS and the BiSS the differences you will feel are in the accuracy by which the filters are applied as the drive system can better judge speed changes and positioning over hat with fewer points so it can apply the filters in a more analog nature… This is why you will usually see that you will decrease filter usage when running a higher count encoder and those filters will be easier to fine tune.

So if you are one that runs No D, F, I filtering or very little (less than 1%) you will notice differences far less than someone who runs higher filtering (above 1%) and those toward 1% may or may not feel the difference.

If you have a SinCOS then you will not really benefit from the BiSS unless you maybe have a 1024 Line but those are rare and even at that it would be harder to feel.

I have done Back to back testing with 5k, 10K, 1024Line, 3600Line, and 5000Line and while there are differences when you do get into the SinCOS and in turn the BiSS there is less of a noticeable difference between… BTW a 5000Line SInCOS is an even higher point count than the BiSS by about 1 million.


#13

Interesting demonstration, SKeijmel. Maybe the weight of the wheel is part of why I experience less oscillation on my system (large Mige). I use NRG quick releases, which are pretty heavy, even on my pretty light Polsimer formula rim. And my Momo 29 has the paddle shifter unit from my old ECCI system. It is steel and a pretty heavy paddle shifter/button plate… I’ll have to get the scales out and post some weights.


#14

also your big mige already has more inertia by itself :wink:


#15

For testing purposes i have ordered a BiSS-C encoder kit :wink:


#16

Skeijmel, I like and can relate to your method of rationalizing purchases. You make me feel better about myself :wink:


#17

In seriousness . . . looking forward to your findings, as you have keen attention to detail.


#18

Lols, I see you’re using my justifications :slight_smile:

Enjoy it though, Seb, I think you will appreciate the additional smoothness and impact to filtering.


#19

Yes thats the biggest reason i am willing to try it. i hope it adds more smoothness. lets see how much it does :wink:


#20

I just received my Augury BiSS-C Encoder upgrade kit I ordered, and i have installed it just now.
(upgraded from a 10.000 ppr encoder)

Here are my impressions while using iRacing with 60Hz FFB:

Oscillations are the same you cant use less damping, friction or inertia. ( so i still use 1 1 3 or 1 1 4 depending on the car / track )

The raw force feedback signal feels more clear and less notchy but its still very notchy of course. (rcon 0)
Reconstruction filter 1 and 5 feel a bit smoother on the higher res encoder but there still is a notchy / geary feel. But the gears feel a bit rounder so to speak.

The forcefeedback is overall a bit smoother. But the biggest improvement is when you use very high ffb strength like 12.86A on small mige and 20-50 NM in iRacing. Than its a whole lot smoother than before and also the motor itself feels smoother like it has to work way less hard.

You don’t feel the noise anymore like the motor is struggling / working hard with very high ffb strengths, with the 10.000 ppr it felt like the motor was struggling but that is gone now.

Also with higher damping it feels smoother with less noise also like the motor has it easier.
So because its all smoother now with my new high res encoder its even more easy to run high ffb strengths.
And the advantage of higher ffb strengths is that you can better feel what the tires and car is doing.

So its a step up especially if you like high ffb strengths and use a lot of damping.
Than you gain the most out of the upgrade. So if you use low ffb strengths its less obvious.

But the FFB really is smoother even so that it seems that it feels weaker because its less jerky and abrupt, so you automatically want to adjust for that by setting your ffb strength a bit higher.

Its a bit like coming from driving with no damping friction inertia at all, and than finally start using it you also feel the need to use a bit more ffb strength because it all became a lot smoother.

Just did a few laps with irffb 360hz ffb in iracing and rf2 400hz ffb rate, with my new high res encoder kit and there definitely a step up there too with higher ffb rate signals! Also tried ACC and that’s also smoother. Of course its going to be the same for all the games :wink:

Overall its a subtle but good improvement especially if you run strong FFB, it was worth the upgrade for me.