DD competition is heating up. How will Simucube respond?

The number of DD competitors (Asetek, Moza, Simagic, etc…) is growing and recently there has been a plethora of unveilings and announcements.

Simucube has a lead on the high end of the market through the benefit of years of development, software maturity and strong reputation.

However that gap is closing and if some of these new competitors can survive and improve their software platform and accessory offerings (e.g. wheels) in the next 12-24 months, then Simucube’s lead could evaporate.

Is there any information on how Simucube plans to retain its brand superiority?

So far the only high end competitor was Fanatec Podium, and they coexisted perfectly.
Why these new lower end offerings should threaten SC2, they are targeting different group of users, unless of course GD is planning to come up with lower NM entry level wheelbase to compete in that market.
It’s still the best HW around, and while SW can use some work and polishing it’s been properly functional already without unnecessary extra bells and whistles.

@Beef36 Asetek offering is anyway Simucube 2 IP they have acquired. I believe Tero and the Team will remain on top of this particular segment for a very long time. As Andrew has noted, Simagic and Moza are geared towards a lower market segment, not one that GD was interested to compete in when I last discussed with Tero a couple years ago.

Whilst Asetek is putting their own unique spin on the SC2 DD technology, it will largely be based upon that, which is a good thing from performance and reliability perspective.

I am very sure we can look forward to exciting developments in the years to come, watch this space :slight_smile:

3 Likes

The only place SC are ahead is in the hardware, the quality is top notch but that’s it. When it comes to software and the actual FFB, there is a lot to wish for especially in Iracing. I know most of you would probably not agree with me. I guess most of you have never experienced a good FFB in iRacing either so you don’t know what to look for and what we are missing.
Once you have experienced what iRacing really can deliver you don’t want to be without it and knowing we are missing a lot of feedback. We just can’t get it with a SC.
Some of the missing feedback.
Road texture (not potholes and bumps) but the real road texture like asphalt, concrete etc
More or less all tyre feedback like tyre slip, acceleration and deceleration forces, gyroscopic forces etc etc.
We also have too much ripple and grinding effects in the recon filters, forcing us to use more damping and other filters than we actually need.
It has been like this all since they released their first own firmware for the SC1.
I can’t understand why they still haven’t fixed this after all these years. Considering what segment they want to be in (the top segment), a good FFB would be the first thing to achieve not the last.

1 Like

I really don’t know where the idea is coming from that Simucube and TD are part of FFB development.
FFB is part of the game physics and is delivered to the Simucube. A poor FFB will stay poor. TD can’t add, reduce or extend FFB signal.
It’s something you should address to the game/sim developers

And still we are doing exactly that with interpolation, damping and smoothing.

@MacIntyre Mmm…I must be doing it wrong then :slight_smile:

Sorry my mistake for not being clear enough. They are not manipulating the input signal (what’s coming from iRacing into the wheel) but they are defiantly manipulating the output signal (what we feel in the wheel).

Extending = Increasing the update rate
Adding = Interpolation
Reducing = Damping/smoothing out the signal

If you then call it add, reduce or something else doesn’t matter.
All that matters is what we feel in the wheel at the end.

I would say this is also wrong. Or , to say it with your words, “written not clear enough”.
When you start a Simucube and TD, and this without a simulation running/active, there is no signal arriving at the Simucube. No FFB, no input, nothing. But why do the filters still working then? Because they act on torque, what changes the “behavior” of the shaft. It’s not on the FFB signal itself.

Only TD active:

damping to maximum and the wheel feels like it is covered in a sea of a rather thick and muddy liquid.

Friction at maximum: This amount of friction keeps the shaft from rotating. It’s starting to rattle like crazy but stays stationary.

Inertia at maximum: the wheel feels much heavier. Nevertheless, a little nudge is enough for it to start spinning.

Static force reduction and slew rate don’t show a result. On, off, limited and not limited,there is no reaction, which is the result expected.

When the filters are set to zero the wheel always behaves like a young and healthy Antilope.

PS: to solve a discussion on something else: Some are convinced that it’s a must to first do the settings in TD and after that the in-game settings. The logic of Simucube is explained in one of their official videos:
Always adjust the software in the simulator first. And then fine tune your settings in True Drive

Yes, we are increasing the update rate, so that the artifacts due to simulator’s low update rate are not felt so prominently on the wheel. The game developer did not mean those to be felt.

Adding linear interpolation between samples is not adding anything, it is just to diminish the artifacts from low update rate.

Yes, that can happen if you run with slew rate limiter or with torque bandwidth limit filter.

You can get probably the most accurate feedback from the game itself if you turn all filters off. It will give raw signal without any filtering on the wheel. It will feel horrible, as iRacing’s FFB is not designed for Direct Drive wheels - especially you will feel lot of 60 Hz artifacts and grainyness on the wheel, which is not realistic at all. And if you mind thinks that they tell something about hte racing surface - then so be it. But its wrong, there is not any information in the low update rate artifacts.

2 Likes

Instead of nagging about technical stuff. This is what I would like to see improved. So we hopefully can have a better experience?

The recon filter (even at 10) has been like this for years.
With all other filters off you still have a “ripple” feeling and it is quite heavy sometimes
I would like to see that “ripple” removed. it’s to dominant.

Hitting the abs creates a lot of shaking especially in the GT3 and we can’t tune it out.

What I miss the most is the road texture and tyre feedback. We should not be forced to use irffb or having a motion rig to get it. The front tyres feedback should be and belongs in the steering wheel as well. If this means you have to use some info from telemetry or what ever you call it. Please add it.
Not having that in the steering wheel ruins the entire experience in iRacing.

Any plans for doing this?

We could add a lot more smoothing, but then again you can add slew rate limiter if you want to further reduce the 60 Hz ripple artifacts. But there will be a compromise between FFB being crisp if user wants to.

That shaking is present in the FFB signal in those situations. There is no way to discern it from other signal components. There is only one FFB signal from the game coming to the wheel base.

IRFFB might have some additional road texture, but it is always 1/60 s = 16.6 ms delayed. Some people are less sensitive of it than others.

It is not just the matter of reading telemetry signal from a game and passing it on to the device. The whole product architecture must be up for it - need to

  • fluently support many games - and games have differing value scales and units for these things, and the method they supply the telemetry is different. A ground-up think on how it should be done, is required before just “slapping something on” to the existing code,which would become difficult to understand and maintain.
  • Need to have PC software support to add, tune parameters
  • Need to have firmware support to communicate things with PC regarding these additional data streams
  • Need to have architecture that makes it fast to implement new effects and test their outputs. Simucube 1 and 2 are quite daunting for this, which slows development.

For this reason, more deep rooted changes in product is required, more like a ground-up rewrite. The almost completely rewritten firmware on Simucube 2 release 2021.11 and up was a part of that, and we are working on the other components mentioned above. No ETAs on the release dates, but follow our teasers on social media channels :slight_smile:

2 Likes

Most of that ripple seems to be in the higher area higher % output effects or whatever you want to call it :slight_smile: and the biggest issue is most of the filters can reach it not even slew rate at max 0.1 setting if that is max closer to Zero. With that setting the tyres feels ugly though :frowning: It seem to me that most of the filters smooth out the smaller effects and leave you with the big ugly hits, may it be possible to revers the damping filter?

Ok, not much to do then :frowning: it’s ugly.

By my experience, when you have the right feedback you don’t notice the delay that much because you can predict it better. When you don’t have the right feedback then the delay will become an real issue.

And regarding the last part I know that it is a full rewrite probably. :slight_smile: Will it be possible to have a recon filter made specifically for iRacing?
What about ripple compensation like we have in SC1? It was an improvement unfortunately it didn’t go high enough -50 was the highest value in the negative area if I remember it correct, I guess it needs to be -60.

No, the recon filter is general filter. We developed it with signals with me driving a few tracks with a GTE car, (or might have been GT3), and optimized it so that the 60 Hz signal artifacts were mostly gone without minimal added overshoot in signal direction changes, when the filter is at setting 5.

The cogging and ripple compensation in IONI servo drive as used on Simucube 1 worked in a way that would characterize the motor properties and reduce idle cogging and on-torque cogging. Those were both very minimal in Mige motors, and further diminished in the motors used on Simucube 2. In fact, I do not think they are even enabled in the Simucube 2, as there was no benefit from them (couldn’t measure torque difference with them on/off).

You probably were using a badly tuned stepping motor or something like that, or a very bad servo motor. Or you are mistaking torque ripple with some affects or artifacts from the game’s 60Hz signal - those are just so different things.

This is going to be interesting

It will most likely be geared towards the mid-tier level, where there already is a lot of activity. Peeps will spent what they want to spent, I suspect there always will be a need to cover all tiers for any specific product.

Simucube2 has always been geared to be the best, competing at the top of tier 1, as such, I fully expect future developments from GD will be focusing there. Of course, that doesn’t mean tier 2 solutions might never realize, but probably not yet.

Anyway, looking forward to what’s coming next from GD, whatever it will be, will be good :wink: with that said, the upcoming TM wheel certainly will keep the TM fans happy. Good for them.

1 Like

Agree, but all that activity comes from no name Chinese companies, nobody heard of, no history, no reputation to back their product, pretty much startups that will vanish in a thin air just as quickly as they appeared.
Even Fanatec with wider market penetration, but not a good reliability and support track record, cannot compete with mass produced, everybody knows and likes brand that you can just buy from amazon, BestBuy, or any other online or local store.
It’s industry shift to DD at a different scale, how much will that affect potential future customers of SC2 only time will tell, but more options definitely opens room for more considerations, such as price, brand recognition and track record, existing and future ecosystem (pedals, shifters, wheels), safety, games support, ease of use, reliability, etc.
It is going to be different then when you could choose any DD wheel as long as it’s Simucube.

If anything I can see it as a catalyst for more active SC2 development on SW/FW side, when you stop running, others will overtake you.

Trust me when I say that Simucube development has not stopped running :slight_smile: Let’s come back to this topic in the future.

1 Like

I may well pick one up when released, assuming it does actually appear in my lifetime, as I have a stack of TM rims including the SF1000 formula wheel that i bought just a couple of months before I decided to go Simucube.

It could make for a reasonable second rig if the TM DD is half decent.

No DD is a threat to the Simucube 2, not one that is sold at the moment and sure not a product from Thrustmaster. I can’t imagine someone connecting a top steering wheel to their first DD (half serious, half joke).
I also doubt that Thrustmaster will throw a masterpiece on the market, not at their first attempt and not at their second attempt.
Meanwhile something not so new, but still interesting:…
https://simucube.com/news/team-supplier-announcement-simucube-2-and-mercedes-amg-petronas-esports-team/