It is to do with market placement of the products and their features.
@Mika, is it possible that you might consider allowing a few of the advanced Pro or Sport users to trial this static force reduction speed setting and give feedback on itâs usefulness?
I donât think adding this to the lower ranked models would steer potential buyers away from the Ultimate as people with that kind of disposable income will always buy the best, regardless.
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@Mika Theoretically this may have been correct from the GD original marketing perspective. But as you said earlier ultimate owners do not really use gamma or sfr speed, so we can safely assume that these filters could not have been the deciding factor or feature for customers to choose the ultimate. As such allowing these filters to pros and sports, shouldnât in any way cannibalize the sales of ultimates if this may be your concern. Also the fact that these filters are not really used cannot be interpreted that these filters are useless, simply my guess is that not many people own ultimates (I guess they are just a fraction of the total sales of pros and sport) and those who indeed own them, may have not found the need to use them or they are not experienced enough to find their appropriate usage. Speaking for myself after 2 years of owning the pro with actively testing and tuning ffb settings (you can see my activity through the forum) I only just realized that this sfr timing could seriously help with many situations. The gamma as well could help boost a tiny bit the lows where and if needed since the SC is lacking on that front compared to the DD1/2 offerings. After a lot of involvement with sims and ffb I realized lately that it would be better to rely on our SC software instead of the mainstream ffb signal from each sim.
Also you donât need too many people now using these filters to prove or disprove something. Most of us check and copy settings posted here and in the future we will do this from the online system as also @kledsen said already. Now, if I have access to these filters on my pro and I am able to come up with some good settings for example for ACC, be sure that a lot of people will copy them once I post them and use them as is or as a base to build upon. So more and more people will start using these filters even without knowing what they do. Many people already have used settings that I have previously posted in various sim threads of the forum in my effort to help fellow sc owners enjoy their product. It just takes one person who more or less knows what he is doing for others to follow and improve. That is the purpose of all these discussions and the forum itself I believe.
So please consider bringing/allowing these filters to pros and sports especially if this can be done even with the slow / neutral / fast approach. There is no reason apparently keeping them exclusively to ultimate. Why not make more GD customers happier with their products and more comfortable with their investment? At the end of the day, GD has been positioning these products as the next gen. You owe it to yourselves, your customers and your future customers to keep them next gen to continue your success. DD wheels are meant to be kept for years, they are not mobile phones meant to change every 1-2 years.
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Excellent summary and extremely valid points. Hopefully, @Mika will reconsider stance on the issue and pass along to the rest of the GD team. There doesnât seem to be a good reason to keep these features locked away from Pro and Sport users at this point. In fact, I see it more as a negative to do so from customer satisfaction standpoint. As you alluded to, it seems extremely unlikely that existing Ultimate owners would be upset if Pro/Sport models received some implementation of these filters, and even less likely that Ultimate model sales would be cannibalized. No one with that kind of money is going to settle for anything other than the best, and often for those people, something being better in just ONE aspect is all it takes to convince them itâs worth spending top dollar. Simply, itâs the best, or nothing for those with the most disposable income. The filters would hardly change the Ultimateâs target market opinion considering multiple other hardware specs are better on the Ultimate.
ADDED EDIT: As an analogy using one of the most successful companies of all time: Apple uses hardware alone to differentiate between their iPhone models. Their iOS is identical feature wise between all models (unless hardware limitations dictate feature-set changes within the iOS). Same with their computers. For the most part consumers of hardware products assume top-tier devices cost the company more to produce, thus itâs fair to pay more (assuming the upgrades are desirable at least in theoryâŚnot necessarily in practicality even).
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I donât know how Ultimate gamma is implemented, if itâs anything like AC, ACC I can see why people donât use it. Itâs impossible to get right, yes, it boosts low forces but also extends to midrange, so kind of everything gets heavy.
Lower Force Boost as itâs done if AMS2 is probably the better options as I suspect that even if they use gamma, the midpoint must be shifted to the low end.
I can see interface for linearity adjustment with sliders for boost strength and midpoint location, like simplified version of Kunos LUT that doesnât require PhD to use.
I know that this policy has lost specific costumers for a fact, just fyi.
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BTW, placebo or not but just released 2021.5 seems to make snapback gentler even on Porsches and such, may be even less spiky overall.
And you donât have to use EA Paddock, Classic is still there.
Yes, the servo drive should feel more like in the 2020.10 release with this latest tuning change. I havenât noticed differences in FFB feel in the 2021.1 - 2021.4 releases but then again I donât remember actually doing any back-to-back driving testing on top of the development testing. But you are not the first one who has commented that the releases in between have been a bit more spiky than 2020.10 was.
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Thatâs interesting, Iâm still on 2020.10. Do I need to upgrade at some point or am I safe staying with 2020.10 if I am happy with it?
You can check the changelog for any differences.
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This is one of the most frustrating aspects of ACC for me. The slides just seem arbitrary and I have to crank up the tyre noise to hear the (oddly-chosen) effects as the tyres wash out across the track. Not knowing whether the car is going to slide or spin is antithetical to sim racing game design, IMO.
Yes, the sudden loss of information is like a sudden reduction in picture resolution from 4K to 320p. I watched Arisâ video several times now, and watched a few of Niels Heusinkveldâs as well, and I just cannot understand how Aris, who surely has driven GT cars at the Kunos HQ at Vallelunga (a circuit I have been to several times and know fairly well), can be pleased with the handling characteristics in ACC. In rF2, if you drive the 911 Cup car, for example, you can clearly feel the effects of introducing increasing degrees of slip angle, and within certain ranges there is clear bite, while those get more vague at other angles and under acceleration, which is how the car feels in real life.
I do not think rF2 adds unrealistic levels of FFB, especially since they can be toned down and you can change the in-game strength (per car), introduce smoothing and edit the JSON files to considerable degrees of detail.
So, back OT: Does anyone know why ACC outputs tyre scrub to telemetry (SimHub sees it) but it cannot be amplified in TD?
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In all their wisdom, they removed âseat of pantsâ from the FFB. Itâs a shame because the seat of pants is the best feature of regular AC. You can switch between cars and tracks and as long as youâre a good driver, you can come upto speed quickly driving purely on feel. It also makes setup changes easier as you can feel how the load is moving around on the car. What you often see is people on here and other places struggling to find some magic settings in software to bring back this seat of pants feeling in the FFB when itâs simply not there.
Maybe the dev who did irffb for iracing can do something here.
What AC SOTP we are talking here?
ACC Road Effect is meant for non steering rack forces. And it works great. I am driving AC and ACC every day, side by side. Canât say I miss anything in ACC feedback, quite contrary.
BTW, there was some interesting comment from Mika, may be we will have generic telemetry FFB in TD after all.
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You answered your own question with the quote you posted below
âIRFFB reads the iracing telemetry values (car slip angles and such) and generates the seat-of-pants effects based on that.â AC already does this. I recall youâre an advocate of âI donât use any ffb effects slidersâ so if youâre running vanilla, Iâm not surprised you canât tell a difference.
I rather be given extra info and filter out what I want than never have it in the first place. Thereâs a reason why irffb SOP is popular btw.
Anyway, subjective preferences aside, no setting in acc or td is going to give you SOP feeling in ACC currently.
There is no SOTP in AC.
This is break down on AC FFB from Stefano himself.
FFB Signal
in AC, âpure ffâ is:
force and torques from tyres/springs/dampers/arbs -> suspension geometry -> steering rods -> ff output
âRoadâ effects
Car body vertical G -> ff
âSlipâ effects
Tyre slips (all 4 of them) -> ff vibration
âKerb curb whateverâ effects
IF FRONT_LEFT IS ON CURB OR FRONT_RIGHT IS ON CURB THEN VIBRATE THE **** OUT OF FF
âUndersteerâ thingy
I wonât acknowledge its existence, itâs all a government/illuminati conspiracy
From 1.15
âABSâ effects
ABS on -> ff vibration
Whatever comes from the stuff above is then send to the âFF Post Processâ system that will either leave it intact or pass it through the gamma or LUT provided.
And explanation from Aris on ACC
Thatâs where the FFB âRoad Effects enhancementâ comes into play.
Normally from a bump, the wheel/suspension gets a force and goes up but at a modern suspension there is not significant bump steer so the actually steering wheel doesnât really moves. Try it on your real car, juts find a bumpy road and touch your steering wheel lightly. Youâll feel the bump as a noise and on your body but you will notice that the steering wheel doesnât move at all.
The âroad effectsâ takes that slight force and amplifies it to the point that it moves your steering wheel. If you disable it, you will not feel anything at all, except some particular big bumps or at very high speed with cars with high downforce, limited suspension travel and big bump steer and more than 40ish mm scrub radius.
Dude, those effects combined is exactly what SOP is. Those things Iâd feel through my ass, are now coming as signals through the wheel. So I now have additional data points to feel what the car is using.
Be more specific on what you mean, road effects are present in both, the only thing that is missing is separate slip effect in ACC.
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On the subject of tyre scrub, I thought it might be helpful to share this post by Renato at Reiza Studios (Automobilista 2):
Hereâs the key thing for me that is missing in ACC:
FX : Adds a little vibration from the engine as it goes through the RPM range (very faint, and linked to the engine´s actual angular velocity); it also adds a âTyre Scrubâ effect, which is a function of tyre vibration that would naturally transfer as vibration onto wheel rim, driven by actual physics signal.
I have tried raising the âRoad Effectsâ setting in ACC to try to achieve the AMS2 âFXâ result, but it does not appear that itâs the same concept.
As of right now, only rFactor 2 and AMS2 have tyre scrub that gives me the information that I need in order to feel what the tyres are doing, and that there is a connection between the car and the road.
I will be trying IRFFB in iRacing as there is an understeer effect from telemetry that becomes available for the FFB.
In ACC, I did try to use a transducer to give me tyre slip, however, it started activating any time I put the steering angle past 15 degrees or so, when the tyres were not actually slipping, so I had to turn it off.
Broken record here, but I would really like to understand why Kunos has decided not to take this FX approach that Reiza has when it comes to steering column torque, and why ACC has a dead feeling when the car is on a straight or in a slide.
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Iâm using shakers also to help with tyre scrub feel.
What you can try, is to play with the response filter for that particular effect so that it doesnât kick in too early.
You have Gamma, threshold, minimum force and input gain. You can try tuning those to suit what your body/brain expect to feel.
See the guide here
I find the best place to test this is the long right hander after the first chicane at Monza. Try going through that at a high but steady speed and play with the threshold till you can get it at the point where you think the effect should start to kick in. From there, you can adjust the Hz, gamma and min force to get the feel youâre after.
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