I bought the SC2 Pro, and I’ve been using it for a few months now… I’m quite perplexed about its operation; every now and then the force feedback disappears, and there are things that I think are wrong in the settings. However, since I don’t want to be arrogant, I wanted to ask the community a few things.
Here are my questions:
The SC2 Pro is sold with a single 360W power supply capable of providing a maximum of 48 volts and 7.5 amperes. Why is it that in the settings at 100%, the amperage corresponds to around 22.8 amperes? If you’ve provided a maximum 7.5-ampere power supply, why allow for a range of 22.8 amperes?
In anticipation of wanting to replace the motor and power supply in the future, is there a possibility with software, perhaps Granity, to make fine configurations in to the motor controller?
A servo drive is a sort of power converter. One cannot use input amperage and voltage to say anything about output voltage and current. The power draw from the power supply is digitally controlled and the functions are tuned so that the power supply is not overloaded.
No, Simucube 2 does not have motor tuning available for the end user.
Yes, what you say is partially correct, but I would like to emphasize that the input voltage and amperage directly affect the torque output and the rotational speed of the servo motor. These parameters are crucial in determining the overall performance of the servo system. Disregarding the importance of the power supply could lead to an incomplete assessment of the capabilities and performance of a servo drive. Therefore, it is crucial to carefully consider the power supply when evaluating or discussing the performance of a servo system.
In my opinion, it seems there might have been a mistake in equipping such a system with a relatively weak power supply. I would like to propose a direct comparison between a single power supply base like the R2 and a dual power supply base like the initial R1 that was sold. I am confident that the R1 with the dual power supply has more torque.
Why don’t you offer or consider allowing users to make modifications and improvements to this product?
Why did you switch from the dual 360 power supplies to a single 360 power supply?
Input voltage affects the maximum rotational speed of the servo motor. Otherwise the power supply only determines the maximum torque output, and that also in quite strange situations; static torque is not the maximum case, not even close.
We have done the analysis of the power supplies and tuned the servo drive to suit them.
Does Fanatec allow motor tuning? How about Logitech or Thrustmaster? Or Simagic or Moza? Why should we?
R1 power supplies were two 280 W power supplies in a parallel configuration. Theoretical maximum power draw was something like 0.8 * 560 W = 448 W due to the power supplies having slightly different output voltage, and the load balancing circuitry also taking a bit of power to balance the inputs. And even then there were some cases where the power supplies were not well enough balanced, causing the other one to drop out and then immediately also the other one.
The 360 W unit we now use, has 3-second boost capacity to 430 W (IIRC) and that is enough to supply current for those maximum power events (which are not the maximum static torque events). The maximum power is typically used when the wheel is already rotating at high speed and user turns the wheel fast to the direction where the servo drive is already trying to turn the wheel.
Look, the issue is simple. You’re not Fanatec, you’re not Thrustmaster… Your Direct Drive isn’t found in the shopping mall between sugar and salmon. Be Simucube. Be at a professional level that none of our competitors have ever come close to matching your results.
Whether you want to accept it or not, you’ve become famous primarily thanks to the potential of your SC1. It was configurable in terms of ions, it offered free choice of motor (how many customers complained about the Keba with coil whine?), and it could be configured in terms of encoder type. I’d like to speak on behalf of the community. We felt free to create our own build.
Today, I don’t feel free to customize this base… and you know very well that there are many things that can be improved.
Consider making customization possible; you would satisfy a significant portion of “more demanding” customers.
You can grab it by walking into MicroCenter store today, it is a consumer product just like Thrustmaster, not semi DIY SC1 or full DIY Argon or IONI OSW, reason for all these safety features like disabled by default hard to activate permanently High Torque, all these activation beeping, etc.
Do you have Phiphonic or new Meanwell PSU?
Open support ticket if you are experiencing power loss, GD can replace PSU if it’s faulty, most likely you will get new Meanwell model as a replacement.
As one of the main drivers for the original SC1 and having build many systems, I cannot really see a need at all for a configurable drive stage. There are no benefits to anyone, and will add a huge overhead on support for the GD guys.
Back in those days, myself and a few others were a first level and often expert level support for the communities, and because it was a DIY-style initiative, things were quite open. Now, with SC2, it is not only a drive-controller, but a fully fledged product.
To ensure the credibility and quality of the brand, certain things, like the tuning parameters, have to be finely controlled. 99% of people back then did not want to touch the tuning at all, they only wanted ready-made templates anyway. And most of those drive-controller templates were derived from what Tero and I put together after alpha/beta testing.
Same went for encoder support, there were always a lot of alpha/beta testing by myself and GD guys behind the scenes to get basic functionality working, before letting it out in the wild. It was similar for SC2 in the beginning years, so there are a lot of manhours needed to make even basic changes.
I have seen the inside of the tuning parameters available in the SC2, it is far more complex than what SC1 had, and you can trust me if I say 99.99% of peeps will probably not want to fiddle in there. I can see even on most forums that people do not want to time even basic parameters in the UI, they are always asking for settings.
There is no real purpose any longer for a diy movement, as there are quite many dd wheels out there nowadays. DIY movement was started because all we had back then was a very expensive Bodnar DD wheel.
Personally, I have built over 30 bases using the SC1 board, and subsequently sold them as it was also my job. I have been building driving simulators for over seven years, but the disappearance of the SC1 motherboard from the market has heavily impacted my income.
Setting aside personal and professional considerations, for my constructions, I used 750W Meanwell power supplies, Ioni ProHC, and Mige 15015 motors with BISS-C encoders. I sincerely believe that this configuration was far superior to what the SC2 Pro can offer, not only due to the higher torque of the motor, but especially for the intrinsic quality of the motor itself and how the Ioni Pro HC works, which is very different. The Keba used in SC2 is really noisy, and it cannot be denied that many people complain about it. Why not opt for a quieter alternative? Entering the market with such a high price, it would make sense to use a higher quality motor.
This is precisely where the SC2 Pro shows limitations in its characteristics. Therefore, yes, I feel the need to customize my base to get the performance I’m looking for. And I’m not the only one who perceives the need for a do-it-yourself approach. I know for sure, also because I have heard through the grapevine, that Beano made modifications by mounting a Kollmorgen… well, maybe I’m not the only one thinking this way.
We kept selling Simucube 1 boards with IONIs until May 2022, but the market pretty much was gone after mid 2019.
There are always tinkerers and DIY oriented people, though. But we find it difficult to support that tiny area of market using the resources we have. If we had kept SC1 available for purchase after May 2022, we would have had to raise its price due to increased production costs and some additional rework due to component-level EOL matters.
Also the markets are interesting - there are some isolated market areas in the world where it will always be more cost effective to import only components due to high customs fees; Brazil being one of the most known ones but there are others as well. We are looking into how we can best serve those market areas in the future.
It is also true, that we couldn’t have made Simucube 2 Pro R1 (with the two power supplies) with the Mige motor mentioned above. WIth that motor, it was impossible to get the torque required, and that motor is less efficient overall. It was important for us to be able to use off the shelf brick style power supplies that have less then 0.5 W idle power consumption. Without this feature, we wouldn’t have been legally able to sell the product in the USA and I think even Europe has now the same requirements. This requirement is not met with any of the industrial style PSUs that were used with Simucube 1.
Thank you very much, Mika, for your detailed and comprehensive response. Honestly, I had a different impression, but it’s great to know in detail all the preambles that have occurred in the ‘backend’, pardon the term. It was very interesting to understand the challenges and considerations you faced in keeping the Simucube 1 available until May 2022 and in developing the Simucube 2 Pro.
Regarding your explanation about the decline of the market for the Simucube 1 and the difficulties in supporting the enthusiast and DIY market segment, I understand your limitations and the complexities involved in balancing market needs with available resources.
Your discussion about regulatory requirements, such as the idle power consumption below 0.5 W for sale in the United States and Europe, was enlightening and underscores the importance of regulatory compliance in global markets. I would never have imagined that to be legally compliant, this standard had to be respected.
You have really put in a lot of effort, I recognize that…
I am eager to see how you will continue to evolve and adapt to meet the changing needs of your customers and the global market.
Thank you again for your transparency and clarity in your explanations.
P.S. Do you anticipate the release of a possible SC3 in the future? Have you also considered compatibility with PS5/Xbox consoles? As they too, albeit very slowly, are gradually approaching the world of Sim Racing.
Considering pulling the trigger on a Pro and selling my OSW small mige but just so I am clear the pro really doesn’t draw hardly any more wattage than my small mige did correct? Mine was the Sim Racing Bay sin cos kit with the 480W meanwell on it.
No, Simucube 2 Pro does not draw more power than your existing wheelbase. The servo motor has noticeably higher efficiency and thus does not draw even in peak torque pumps more power than “small mige” motor. If you typically use high torque settings and you have noticed that your motor is warm to the touch, you will notice that SC2 Pro does not heat up as much as “small mige”.
I confirm the sensations you described.
However, I noticed that both the “Small Mige”, both the 10010 version and the 10015 version, had much more torque than the sc2 pro…
Are we sure that they are really 25nm peak? and how many constant nm can it produce?
We measure all of these these with our testing equipment at the factory and prior to selecting a motor desing those are measure in our r&d department. How do you measure any difference you mention that you have noticed? SC 2 Pro motor has about double the efficiency compared to small mige, therefore it can produce more torque with smaller power supply and also prouduce more torquen and speed in a linear manner.