True Drive filters, what they do and how they interact

FFB Tuning can be a hobby all by itself!

Please don’t deny users the chance to experiment and learn about FFB while exploring what is possible. Eventually, we all discover the settings that suit us best and spend more time playing Sim’s than tuning but, I don’t regret the time spent in exploring the potential that this marvelous hardware offers us.

I’ve been tuning FFB since the first FFB wheels emerged on the scene and am still learning about it decades later. In fact, a certain complex FFB tuning software (options galore) is still my favorite but, I’m sure we don’t need to go down that rabbit hole again. :wink: What you are providing customers is very good indeed Mika but, there are still some issues with certain title’s ffb that even the best hardware can’t solve. Short-coming’s in game-ffb will always send some players searching for solutions lest we all just give up, and what kind of solution is that(?)

It’s only natural that people question their FFB settings in search of better ones but, that’s just part of the evolutionary process that is finding our personal sweet-spot in FFB. How do we know what is possible and the difference between good ffb and the bad if we don’t experiment, ask questions and learn(?)

4 Likes

You all have good points, and we recognize that. However, our competitors have much more understandable terms for the filters, where as we currently can’t even explain some settings ourselves -and commonly the settings are used in confusing way. It is clear that something has to be done, and it will be balancing act to satisfy all.

2 Likes

Maybe some terms are too specifics, 100% accurate technically and need to be more in the feeling, touch (How do I feel when I touch this effect).

nb: I also tried this in the pictures.

2 Likes

Mika I see you mentioned the telemetry shows that x amount of people are not using a particular setting.
Are you ( Granite Devices) somehow collecting telemetry from end users? If so how?

And yes I agree that most people were able to stop using the notch filter when SC1 came on the scene. Some magic in the rest of the software got rid of the wild oscillations.:grinning:

Yes, that is being done (if user consents to it) in the latest True Drive software version. However, due to an issue, we only got a week’s worth of data, but it has enough already to analyze many things.

1 Like

Ok cool.

Since you are collecting the data and can see the different settings, could you design a program that could take all the data collected and make a profile that was an average of the total collected settings?

If you can, after you get a very large sample from users I would think this could be very beneficial. Of course it is just my theory, but it could be a correct one.

Also can the telemetry collected determine what Sim the person is driving in? If yes that would be even more beneficial towards the design of a profile from the most common used settings.

I would encourage everyone to allow the telemetry collection!:grinning:

1 Like

We are working on exactly this, but need to wait for next FW so that we can get telemetry again, to have more data to analyze.

We do plan to get the running simulator name as well.

3 Likes

AWESOME!! Guys keep up the good work!

@Joe What would average setting be good for? I have different settings for my different rims even, as the FFB feels differently on them, and naturally for every different car on every different track…

Average settings have pure statistical value, no value for drivers.

2 Likes

and for sc1
is it possible ?

I have the SC 2 pro for the last 5 months and since then i keep changing and changing the settings in my profiles. What i felt to be good today might change in a couple of weeks when i tune a couple of filters and i get a better feeling. The possibilities and customization are infinite and that is what i love about this product. The feeling always becomes better and better with the experience.
This is not a logitec or fanatec product that targets the masses, but people who want to mess with things and find the best feeling for them and are willing to pay the premium. So please leave the advanced options/filters as they are, or just maybe rename them for us to have a better understanding. The simple mode should of course be there for the people that cant be bothered and want easier faster solutions.

In any case FFB can be very different for each person and is also very dependent on the rig, wheel, perception, experience, preference, etc. etc. Simply there is no one size fits all. We need to have the the option to fiddle with settings and find what works better for us.

Having said that, i know Granite Devices team work hard on bringing the best to us and i am sure they will continue improving the software of a great hardware kit. Keep up the good work guys!!!

4 Likes

I agree, worst idea ever.
One size fits all, who are they kidding?
The whole crusade to dumb down software is ridiculous and borderline insulting to end users.

3 Likes

I think a universal/simple setting would be a very interesting experiment. I’m willing to bet owners would see an improvement in lap times, nothing to get distracted by when practicing if they can’t spend hours tweaking filter settings :eyes:

1 Like

I would like the possibility of having a popup with the description of each effect in the TD. What happens to me if I increase or decrease a value … maybe also in other languages ​​(Italian).

2 Likes

Just to be sure…
Collecting data to impose settings will be always a bad idea. I want that each profil will make with the expertise of GD not from users. Mika, you have already confess that the settings are used in confusing way sometimes.

Profile need also to be always an option, I guess.“This is the best settings for this game (average)”
but we need to be able to change settings.

-First, because games are evolving (for examples ACC : 110 to 330hz, maybe iRacing in the future, etc…).
-Secondly, because it’s impossible to have the perfect average setting for a game, if you have a lot of category (for cars).
-And finally for some people, this settings is also a part of the pleasure of buying (tweak settings).

Maybe, I did not fully understand but just to be clear :neutral_face:

I do like profil (from GD only), great idea !!! But I don’t want to be into a totalitarian regime with wrong settings (users).

Please excuse me for any inappropriate expressions, as my English is very poor.

Therefore, it is difficult to actively participate in the forum.
However, understanding the setup was enhanced by looking at the questions posted to the forum through translation.
Probably there are a lot of users like me, and it’s not a negative thing to have setup had a questions in various forums.

No matter how perfect the explanation is, you will get a question.
Because we want to find the best settings for each individual.
A more better feel … more better laptime … it’s only natural to think so.

Maybe what users want is a simple, plain words description.
I understand that it is difficult to express each effect and feel by words.

I do not have an idea, but I need a mode that can make the best use of the performance of simucube2.
At first I was puzzled by the settings, but thanks to the forum, even I, who did not understand English, found my favorite setup without difficulty.

We ask for feedback in the forum and hope that both the Granite Devices team and users will be happy :smiley:

3 Likes

No telemetry features planned for SC1 as it is much more complex and different feel comes directly from motors as well.

1 Like

OK Late to the party here… but a couple of things…

If you are on iRacing you can look to the original SimuCUBE SC1 Information thread (which covered these settings for Granity) which if you find one of my posts is linked to through the SimuCUBE Firmware Thread and it lists all of the basic filters and some information on how they affect each other. Though to be honest that is a difficult thing to describe as I have been doing that for years now. Most of the basic information on this was also in the SC1 User Guide online which I helped write due to the testing that I have done with the SC1… It appears that some of that information was translated to the SC2 Guide…

One of the Hard things with regard to the filters is that different users like much different feelings and though one may feel WRONG to one person it may fit all of the parameters that they want to feel… But I get the point that @MajorWolf72 about many using wrong settings… and I think having base default profiles to work off of does help in this respect…

@Mika - While I do agree that a large Majority of users play a little and then come back and ask for the Best Settings, THAT is NOT a reason to remove settings… The reason is, if you DO how will anyone ever find those settings that are “the best” So I would not go and remove the ability to change the settings OR even push them ONLY to the higher level units… They should remain always on at minimum in an advance setting mode which the user can select to run in.

As for the Peaking and Notch Filter I will go over a bit here in regard to what it does in and its effects in the games (for the most part iRacing as that is what I use but effects would probably be similar in other games… Anyway, this filter is EXTREMELY specific and only works within tight confines on the signal and is used mainly to curb signals that are just out of place so normalize the feel of the wheel. Mis-use of this particular filter however can create dead spots or reduced feeling in the feedback at odd or inappropriate times.

Since this filter works only on a specific frequency (frequency setting) it can be VERY car or Track or even car and track specific to a problem. It can be used to help mitigate Oscilation by suppressing the signal at the point where the oscillation starts, It can be used to mitigate curb feel issues as @Albert_Brennan uses it for… The Issue with it and I can see where this particular filter could be deprecated to OFF is that it is EXTREMELY hard to set-up and without full knowledge of where the issue is like I said you could be dong more harm to the feedback than good. I generally tell people that you really MUST be driving in sim while adjusting this to even come close to getting it correct otherwise you are just throwing darts and you’ll be lucky if you even hit an inner ring.

OK the overview is:
Frequency - sets the frequency that the filter works
Attenuation - db setting of how much the signal is reduced or diminished at the frequency set above.
Q Factor - This sets how wide the CONE of affected signals gets at the starting level before attenuation… think of the attenuation point of the frequency being a boat and the Q factor is how wide the wake is while moving.

The thing to remember with the Notch filter is that once set it affect ALL signals in that frequency cone which means if you set it up to affect curbs but encounter that same frequency in a high speed sweeper do to some road undulation the reduction will be present in both places and it very well could affect you negatively in the sweeper.

Back to @Mika don’t remove features JUST because the majority doesn’t use them, You ONLY should remove them if their use will actually cause a detriment to the product or its use… (which I sort of agree on with the Notch filter). I also think the TBW should always be Unlimited, but I understand from use and some sim related issues that Lower TBW comes in handy to reduce roughness (albeit it sacrifices the high frequency signals)… and to the Apple argument, I have used apple products for a LONG, LONG time and Apple makes use of simplified UI but that has been their focus for years, they are good at recognizing “for the most part” what they can reduce or add to the UI and they do get it wrong sometimes and they get MASSIVE complaints… Generally though they have just moved functionality to a different location making it less accessible but still usable.

PLEASE do not get into the trap that many companies get into with data analytics in that they start justifying every move with it… IT JUST does not work as normally it just shows averages and trends. It does not really show WHY people are doing what they are doing as like I said one persons (or even a few 100 peoples) bad settings are what they like and if you go messing with them THEY will be Unhappy, Then you have the other direction with Really good possibly undiscovered to most settings and you take away their filters (then they will be really UNHAPPY.). in the end you piss off half the user base to have what seems like something more simple to use.

10 Likes

I really liked Granity wiki
Good example from it on how to explain complex procedure in user friendly form.
Plus it was linked to context in the software itself on Info Tab. Can we get something like that in TD?

2 Likes

Hello,

I know how a q-factor affect the notch or widening of a freq. in this context I like to use the notch filter at various freq to find a balance in feeling between other settings. It’s a side effect but , for me , is very useful to fine tune ( my feelings ) . Some time I use it to smooth some freq , sometime to fine tune the torque level , sometime to fine tune damping or inertia … I think that this filter is very useful for some people. To use this filter people have to learn how they change the ffb… it’s not for everyone. I remember OSW early days and why this filter was implemented but now I use it in a new way.

Now, if this filter can damage a motor or generate calibration issues I don’t know but remove it I think is not a good move.

For what I can say today, I don’t use this filter for what is intended on early days but is good to have.

For example :

I have 3 different profile for DALLARA F3…
Sometimes the setup I choose feels a little bit harsh on ffb… but I don’t want to change the recon filter or the inertia or other things and thank to notch filter ( speak itself - NOTCH ).
I set it at 2 / 4 hz ( experimenting freq a step of x2 is a good starting point ) with a Q-Factor between 2.1 / 4.1 is possible to ( capture ) the harsh feelings and ( attenuate it ).

In this way you have the same exact details from recon and if necessary you have to add 1/2 click of strength …

This is an extreme useful filter and it’s not a placebo effect. Just dont over use it because some obviously side effects

Have the same exact behaviours of a single full parametric audio EQ.