Simucube 3 on the horizon?

Simucube 2 Simucube 2 Questions
305

What I meant was “powered on”, the startup if you will.

And to be precise, I was wondering what lock-in you were discussing that upcoming changes would introduce. It’s very confusing, to me at least.

The first point was a lock-in, and I can see how people owning pedals that can only connect to this accessory port would be affected - but I don’t understand where a new lock-in happens.

The wireless protocol likewise WAS a form of lock-in.

This is not a lock-in, what is anyone being locked into by connecting the wheelbase to Link and then PC?

Also, I’m not sure why this is a “ping-pong” conversation to you, I merely asked you where exactly you see the lock-in. To be fair, I don’t know what exactly your opinion is in this, so I can’t even tell you whether I agree or disagree with it, but I will leave it at that.

306

The concept was material cost optimization- the conical shaft clamp solution which tightens against the shaft and pulges outside towards the hub was the elegant design idea that we wanted to keep, so the wheel base side QR part was designed to fit that without having unneeded excess materials.

307

We are talking 3 holes in slightly different places, not additional adapter supplied by GD.

308

The wedge shape was designed with some actual design loads analysis and starting point was that we wanted to use the conical shaft clamp this way, which gave us an outer diameter. The the angles on the QR were optimized to work with the projected loads with minimal deflections. That in combination with material optimization left good places for the three holes pretty much exactly as they are.

We could have used larger diameter for the hub, but that would be extra cost, extra shipping weight, extra CO2. Or we could have used a smaller / custom shaft clamp, with likely extra cost and some months of time delay for the whole project.

The wheel base is a plug&play unit, we don’t exactly have to support 3rd party mods that would be quite easily made by DIY scene or other people in short time. And that consideration was true, adapters were brought to market pretty soon by 3rd parties.

309

Got it, thanks for explanation Mika.
Not that I agree with the motivation as a customer I might have different perspective as you essentially unloaded that extra cost on customer and 3rd parties.

310

I think the way we did it unloaded the cost to those customers who actually want to customize. Which is really a small minority.

311

You can’t really say that it’s a “minority” considering how many use shaft extensions and prefer 3rd party QRs. Again, another example of creating a problem (locking into vendor solution) by not following universally adopted standards and protocols.

312

then you can say that for all other wheel base manufacturers as well.

You didn’t answer my previous question about the vendor lock-in?

313

Like Logitech and Thrustmaster? Yes, they have their toy wheels linked to their ecosystem, always had.
SC2 is a successor of SC1 and OSW, with big enough base of customers already using standard wheel rims with standard extension shafts and QR solution utilizing industry standard bolt patterns.
Sorry, we have tried to save cost on material is not good enough excuse for the customer when he cannot fit his standard wheel extension or QR directly.
I had to pay ~$80 with shipping for Ascher plate and wait a month because it was sold out and backordered, must be that “minority” users cleaning the stock.
Now BT, why not standard BT protocol that could have worked with any system, any wheelbase, anything really. Why it has to be locked to SC2?
Link dongle is afterthought ugly kludge really, solution to the problem that could have been avoided in the first place, and it’s not free either.
This is classical definition of Vendor Lock-In forcing into proprietary solution by avoiding already well established industry wide standards

In economics, vendor lock-in, also known as proprietary lock-in or customer lock-in, makes a customer dependent on a vendor for products, unable to use another vendor without substantial switching costs.

The use of open standards and alternative options makes systems tolerant of change, so that decisions can be postponed until more information is available or unforeseen events are addressed. Vendor lock-in does the opposite: it makes it difficult to move from one solution to another.

314

You didn’t answer the specific question.

315

Read response above, it should have your answer. And if not, read again.

316

Please answer this question @Andrew_WOT

How does the Simucube Link with the ActivePedal actually lock you in Simucube as the vendor of any of your other hardware?

And how does for example a Fanatec sequental shifter, that is connected to the PC with Fanatec’s USB converter, lock user into using Fanatec as the vendor for any other peripherals?

etc…

317

Fanatec was always a walled garden, including their shifter that requires that stupid bulky always losing FW converter. If this is what you are using as an open standard example, you have picked the wrong role model.

1 Like
318

I chose another manufacturer which is rather popular. I can switch to some other example if you wish. But you still didn’t answer the question.

319

I don’t understand your out of context question. I don’t have AP pedals, never will, why you even brings them into conversation.
What I see that you push another home made standard and forcing all peripheral from you (including wheelbase and wheels) using it, instead of standard USB protocol compatible with anything and everything.
And by judging by the history you are not good at sticking with your own standards long term, abandoning them for the next new and shiny thing.

320

Because the same architecture is going to be on our next wheel base, which is what the thread is about. And this exact same architecture is something that you claim is vendor lock-in, but you don’t seem to be able to come up with practical answer on how.

Standard USB is available, only the actual devices are connected with Ethernet.

Are you saying that you would be happy with something like this?

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321

At least from my perspective, for what it is worth, having Ethernet communication (a standard also used in many industrial areas) from the devices like wheels, pedals, even button boxes and steering wheels, back to a network switch and onto Ethernet to USB-C HID device, is actually a wonderful way to maximise bandwidth, link devices and have the benefit of reduced EMI issues when dealing with dd bases, active pedals and also motion equipment.

If the aim is to separate the HID from each and every individual device now have a ‘Central’ HID, communicating via USB-C to the PC, and via Ethernet to downstream devices, or even Ethernet switch, it is a very good technology. I had similar ideas already some years ago, it is a natural and logical progression and helping to reduce EMI-related issues.

As we have experienced over many years, grounding is a big issue in most setups, and ground-loop issues are prevalent everywhere, especially when no standards are followed. So using Ethernet twisted pair carriers will significantly help with signal integrity.

One thing to note, in industrial controls, we use Ethernet networks to run as operation and control-room layers in a few instances - often, we will have UI to process devices on one layer, and then process control to IO devices on a seperate set of switches - standard Ethernet TCP/IP on former, proprietary protocol on the latter.

But sometimes, due to cost-reasons and smaller installations, we can combine both UI/Multicast/Unicast, as well as proprietary IO communications on one layer. So I can see a time where someone will make an open HID /USB-C device, which has this basic Ethernet interface, and all peripherals will connect via a simple dumb network switch, back to open HID.

You will even be able to have Simucube HID connect to let’s say, a 24-port switch, and then an open HID also connect to it, with a multitude of vendors peripherals connected to the same switch, for example, SC3, AP, as well as a shifter from someone else. So in a way, it will become the de facto distribution /connection standard in sim world after 5 years or so, imho.

Just my simplistic pov, anyway.

2 Likes
322

With all future talk. I’m ready for the SC3!

323

Hi Beano, thanks for joining. I remember extra steps I went through to properly shield my OSW build following your guide, but none of that was needed for SC2.
And quick question on that no possibility for ground loop, are you guys not planning to support POE at all or allow shielded cables, I’d guess unshielded close to electric motors and such can lead to other issues like EMI. And if you put shielded you just introduce ground and thing you wanted to get rid of in the first place, ground loop. And no POE means that even low power things like wheel would need to have separate power source, but POE means ground loop.
Galvanic isolation can be built into any device, USB or not, have few high-fi(ish) USB DACs that are pitch black silent with zero floor noise as they have one on board.
Also thinking of mixed configuration with all components from different vendors as 99.99% of sim rigs owners have today, how that single component in the system can solve for ground loop in general for the rest of them.
On the other hand you could get or build USB hub with galvanic isolation and have the best of both worlds.
And if going away from USB to network protocol, why not Wi-Fi, less cable clutter on the rig.

324

I don’t understand the discussion on the technical level, the reason I post is:

This thread is a prime example of how companies should convey appreciation to their customers and how to seriously engage them. I think that a lot of the community also feels a sense of family, which is really great. The Granite employees certainly feel the same, but of course much more intensely. It’s really great: the company, the entrepreneurs, the team, the customers, they all see themselves as part of the whole in a certain way, it’s impressive. Even the products will talk about it among themselves: "Heya Sport, have you heard about the Pro who was homesick after three weeks?? " Yes, I did, it’s hilarious; reminds me of that Ultimate, who didn’t want to go to France at all and pretended she was motion sick: she kept vomiting small amounts of lubricating oil "…