Yeah, those type of things XD
I actually donāt think anyone is using the same Hiperface Encoder of the Ultimateā¦ But the BiSS 22bit is common between Granite(SimuCUBE), Asetek, VRS, and pretty much any Mige based options using the BiSS (since it is the one Mige uses) Granted attached to different servos which is where the ACTUAL feel comes fromā¦ Due to all of the things mentioned by Beanoā¦
They are but sort of in the same manner that Granite hasā¦ Real openness (which I read Might happen) would be to have a USB Pass through QR which would allow the connection of any wheel not just ones that they allow Manufacturers to buy their QR to integrate.
āRegardless of how you define ecosystem the consumers enjoy progression, granite devices are actually in such a position they can have their own ecosystem without it being vendor locking because the design is open to third parties aswell.ā
See Aboveā¦ It is Open but in order to be open as a manufacturer you have to purchase the parts from Graniteā¦ This means effectively that you as a secondary manufacturer are locking into the EcoSystem of a particular brand and in turn are part of their ecosystemā¦ Sure you could do dual interface but how many of the SimuCUBE wireless wheels are also available for use or adaptability to straight USB use so they can be used with any wheelbase.
āfanatec also is open to third party wheels being used you would just need a specific adapter.ā
Not really by Fanatecās choice. Those adaptors are a breaking of the Fanatec Communication Protocol and therefore have allowed for Wheel spoofingā¦ Fanatec is not āallowingā this to occur, they sort of have no choice in the matterā¦ Fanatec would, I am sure, prefer to not have had this happen but that is one of the Bad things about an EcoSystem for a company is that they are so locked now into that communication Protocol that they would hurt their EcoSystem by changing it, so at the moment they have to live with what is going on.
āSo when speaking of ecosystem, nobody is actually asking that they want to be locked into a vendor, what we are saying is it would be nice to have more options available directly from the vendor that works perfectly in unison with the vendors hardware rather than just having the option of third party wheels. And granite have started doing that, we dont think the tahko wheel is them trying to vendor lock to we? no we dont, what it is - is what we want more of, wheels designed specifically to be used with the hardware with extra features enabled as a bonus of being from that vendor which is why you can control the simucube hardware settings using a tahko wheel, its the added benefit of a wheel designed in unison with the hardware.ā
This is the benefit to the consumer of EcoSystem Lock is that special features could be exclusive to a certain āsystemā and going outside of that system will generally not allow these features to properly function without āHelpā from the original manufacturer. How valuable those features are to a consumer is the question.
āāThey are but sort of in the same manner that Granite hasā¦āā
i agree actually you are right, granite has clearly opened up to third party manufacturers and that is why we have SWW wheels rightā¦ i dont think it hits as hard as the direction Asetek has taken personally just because SWW wheels are naturally limited by the nature of the simucube QR being unpowered, this is kind of the genius part of the Asetek solution where these third party wheels will be delivered power by the wheelbase to enable on wheel screens and such natively on the base without a wireā¦ which ofcourse is where the simucube hardware comes up short. But you are absolutely right to say ofcourse that granite do offer that solution, i mean they have to right because they have limited official accessories but as i said i think it doesnt hit like the Asetek due to those limitations.
You are also right about fanatec ofcourse who have far more limited options for using third party wheels and not officially so i stand corrected there.
āāThis is the benefit to the consumer of EcoSystem Lock is that special features could be exclusive to a certain āsystemā and going outside of that system will generally not allow these features to properly function without āHelpā from the original manufacturer. How valuable those features are to a consumer is the question.āā
I would argue that this is quite important to many consumers, i cant speak for others ofcourse, it may not be very important to you but i do think offering a strong internal ecosystem which can leverage the hardware in ways a third party cant is valuable, it naturally allows for things to be done that cant be otherwise, such as tha tahko wheel and what that offersā¦ more wheels like that with a variety of designs would i believe be more attractive than third party wheels just based on features alone, the reason the tahko isnt as popular as it could be is because those features it has are limited by the capability of the hardware. So in this case being able to adjust software from the wheel is great but the experience is diminished by the inability to see what you are doing because there is no display. Add to that the QR is unable to deliver power if there was a display so to have a display that expanded that capability it would need to be wired and ofcourse thats not much of an official SWW wheel if its wired and not SWW at all.
But the question of how much value does that bring is a good one, i think its far higher value than you might realize only because its just something else other bases can achieve and this one cant. A great example of this is in fact Fanatec, for years the one big advantage those wheelbases had were power through the QR, everything else simply cant compete, its not as smooth, its not as fast, it seems to have far more failures than simucube regardless of units sold it just seems to be inherently more unreliableā¦ but none of that matters because here we are 4-5 years after both sets of wheelbases have released and the opportunities available to both are vastly different, we wont ever see a wireless official bentley wheel for the simucube because its simply not possible, so the ecosystem of other brands can expand in ways the simucube cant and thats quite a large advantage.
I mean look sureā¦ we can use a wire and the possibilities are endless right, but lets not kid ourselves the wire is a bitch lol
Power through a QR is a very nice thing to have as well as Data. Depending on how it is implemented it does allow for a lot of options to be had that are otherwise limited. Fanatec of course uses it limited to its devices, Asetek I am not sure if they are offering full USB support + Back-up or extra interface lines for their use only (they have 6 pins), Im not sure what Moza and SimMagic but I know one of them only transfers power and does data wirelessly.
Accuforce had USB pass though which was really cool but their Slip Ring design wasnāt up to part and tended to cause noise so they went RJ11 connection of USB.
It is a given that having Wired capability through the base itself is the best thing but the implementation of that is what limits (or Not).
Personally when a wired wheel is connected properly (correct droop and placement) it isnāt that much of a PITA. But it is a wire and current trend is to not like wiresā¦ Wired connections are always the most reliable though.
BTW, Proprietary EcoSystem Functionality can be done via traditional USB as much as it can through any other interface it is all about how the Device and Programs communicate with each otherā¦
In any case though we are WAY off topic nowā¦ but the slew rate issues of course were pretty much hashed out a few days agoā¦
What is good from a QR that transport data, information, power supply, FFB information for a wheel manufacturer like VPG and Gomez???
They have their own software for double clutch and vocore displays worked into the wheel. They have to wire this in a special way, developing firmware, per game displays, per car displays Aso. They protect their inventions and design by registering.
And now they should change everything, so it passes through the Asetek QR??? And a variation that will work with another company?
Their very very sophisticated displays show the temperature of all 4 brakes, and while the temperature raises the section changes the colour from cold (blue), to bright green, and to to dark green . You see the temp degree as real time digits and in real time colour code. Harvesting, deploying of ERS h and k is displayed with bars. Same for deployment. Tyre wear, tyre temp, pressure, drs active, fuel mixā¦ everything is provided on the display. How should this be possible through the QR from Asetek? Power demand, will Asetek QR be able to provide the power needed for all this?, Plus LEDs? Illuminated buttons? Will Simhub work with it? And what if Granite will have a different QR solution? And of course they will have a different solution, will the wheels I mentioned before work with this too?
How will it be when Granite finds a way to produce wireless wheels with display and double clutches, and their wireless system is only compatible with their own wheels??
We will have to buy their wheels, or wheels from 3d parties that have to use the same technique. Asetek is trying to get in this position, Granite aswe!l, Fanatec already has achieved this.
Granite made a single wheel till now. A wheel you canāt really use in formula cars, and not really in rally cars. And there is the wheel done together with GSI. This wheel has only 1 thing provided by Gran! : The name labelā¦ everything else is from Gomez, from display to usb power system.
Once these QR are Asetek only, Granite only, Simagic only, Moza only reality, all these awesome, genius high end companies will vanish. They canāt develope a wheel with 5 different solutions. And they donāt want to be restricted from DD companies, all with different QR, which makes it impossible for them to realise their perfect product.
And what the majority of simracing people do? They welcome the decrease of independent, precious and rare pearls. They actively support companies which design all in a way, that itās only really good if used with their other products.
Granite has a pedal changing simracing for everā¦ but who has a rig the 6kg pedal will fit? A pedal plate a 40cm long pedal will fit? If the pedal can be mounted, with which products will they work? Who wants a brake pedal so dominant, and to the left and the right a Heusinkveld??? No one, it will look so ugly that people will buy brake and pedal.
How many units are produced? Is the software ready? Maybe 5, and no. But as o much already are convinced, itās the best product ever, no doubt. Asetek will rock the business with this gigantic slew rate of 9.4ā¦pet minute, secondā¦who cares. Their the best. They stopped delivering their DD? They maybe have to call back all already sent out. But hey, thatās a minor issue. Normal for new products, why are you so negative Clay? I bet my house they could send you the spring and you can change it yourself. Relax, you really are very often kind of an ass, Clay. Best is to ignore your comments.
2 days later: I have a problem with FFB! Granite has to fix this shit immediately. What a crap company. Their wireless is a joke, I have missshifts, problems with connection.
A day later: my fault, didnāt use USB cable
The day I canāt choose the best wheel (my personal favourite), together with the pedals I think are the best will be the day you stop saying ecosystem. And the day you start saying itās a monopolistic group, or a single company dictating the market. It sucksā¦it doesā¦ but already now
I think MOZA was the one with power through QR and internal Bluetooth connection for the wheel.
No, I didnāt, sorry. Not because itās bad in my eyes. I didnāt even could read it, mistakenly touched the like button. Seems there is no way to correct such a fault. At least it is for a person I like to give hearts
The asetek bases transmit power and data through QR, they do not claim any wireless interface at all, so yes some bases transmit only power with a Bluetooth interface for data but the asetek doesnāt so they donāt actually claim itās āwirelessā because that would indicate the use of a wireless interface like Bluetooth or Wi-Fi etc.
A pin connection of any kind is exactly the same as a traditional wire for reliability because it is essentially a solid unbroken connection, like soldering I guess itās a metal to metal connection. If there was a wireless element to the connection like in some other bases I would fully agree a wire is more reliableā¦ in fact I can speak of that from experience because I did have Bluetooth issues on my simucube 2 until I went with a wired wheel.
āHow should this be possible through the QR from Asetek? Power demand, will Asetek QR be able to provide the power needed for all this?, Plus LEDs? Illuminated buttons? ā
The answer to all of this is yes sir, the power provided from the QR is more than enough to power everything at once, if it wasnāt and you needed a cable for anything it would completely defeat the purpose of the feature, so everything from LEDās to complicated screens to illuminated buttons etc it all works through the QR alone. The wheelbase provides its own power without the limitation of power provided by usb for example, many people donāt realise that even sometimes usb canāt provide enough power to correctly power a display on a wheelā¦ has nobody noticed that sometimes a screen can behave strangely, become off centre or be garbled in some way, thatās a lack of power from the usb connection. This wonāt happen with a powered QR.
I can see we clearly speak different language natively so I hope we are trying to be patient with each other as it can get confusing for both of us Iām sure 
I promise I am trying to be friendly and informative, Iām not trying to say asetek is the best ever and simucube sucks, Iām trying to say where I think they have moved forward and where the simucube may be falling behind, I love my simucube but we have to acknowledge when it may fall behind as this is actually useful for the guys at granite to see what the community would like in future, how they can move forward with future products etc.
Does the simucube need a new QR, I donāt know, I donāt think itās even possible, Iām not sure if you are trying to indicate that they are working on that, it seems like you believe they are?
It seems like a large amount of your post is mocking me somehow because I have had misshifts or Bluetooth issues and I am stupid because I should have always used a wire? Is this correct? Do you really think I am stupid for wanting to use the Bluetooth feature??
You seem very aggressive and upset about something?
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Just a few points from me:
- We canāt reveal what was included in the deal between us and Asetek. Some correct guesses and many incorrect guesses in this thread.
- Asetek probably would have made their SimSports product line without us anyway.
- Transferring data and power through the QR can be done many ways, but its not the whole part of the story.
- Putting eggs into one basket (SimHub) is what many wheel builders are now doing because they canāt do anything else regarding software either. We are investigating how we could work with SimHub but is looks like there are some caveats of using that in a commercial product. For example, danger of getting into all kinds of licensing issues with Arduino based code which would force us to reveal all our related source code due to GPL license.
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Thanks for your input mika, itās always good to hear from the actual people that know.
It would be interesting to know if the deal with asetek was time limited, I donāt know if thatās something you can say?
Itās also good to hear you are looking at other avenues like integration with sim hub, thatās an exciting prospect.
I also hope you dont think Iām fuelling some kind of hate campaign here against the Simucube products, Iām trying to keep it a friendly and informative discussion, Iām sure we all love our Simucube products.
I have mentioned before on Discord that the SC2 IP deal with Asetek was a snapshot at a particular point in time. They could then develop their product from that snapshot, and GD could also further develop SC2 in any direction they wish.
Whatever GD did after remains GDās full IP and no insight into that will be shared with Asetek. So you can bet that technology from GD will be very different concepts now, than when the snapshot of IP deal was done with Asetek.
Above is what I have as the actual ābasicsā about the situation. Information was shared directly by GD, so I could inform communities to avoid the speculation and rumours that was rampant back then.
If they are actually passing USB through as I think they are (donāt know for sure but that is what it sounds like) then it could be really good for aftermarket as all of the Wired wheels that use screens and everything else would work exactly as they do now but without a hanging wireā¦ Granted they have to Buy and sell the Quick release to attach to their wheel UNLESSā¦ and I hope Asetek does this or someone else doesā¦ they make a Wheel side QR that has a USB plug in it that then interfaces through the baseā¦
Yes this would have a wire loop still but it solves the issue (the ONLY real issue with Cabled wheels) of possibly breaking the USB cableā¦ This would also allow Users to actually use the wheel side always attached to the base to change wheels at will via USB.
So there would be a benefit to a USB pass through QRā¦ But all honesty a fully wired wheel with a well positioned USB port extension near your wheel base is just as good if not better than any of the integrated solutions.
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Well Yes and Noā¦ the Asetek system of transfer does go through a Slipring system which is a disconnection in the wire, so there is a point of failure there much like happened with the Original Accuforceā¦ However a good Slip ring is quite reliableā¦ the issue with slip rings though and USB is that USB is actually Quite Sensitive to noise and slip rings can cause noise due to the fact there is rotational contact of two electrical elements which would permeate through the Data Lines and cause possible errorsā¦ I am sure they have tested it but it technically is not as good as a direct fully connected wire system and in some cases could be worse than Bluetooth or WiFi (at least for data).
I can FULLY attest to this situation from the process of rewriting the entirety of the iFlag program which is a GPL Licensed program. We found some workarounds to keep some of our wheel and device related ip proprietary but that license is S000000ā¦ far reaching it is pretty insaneā¦ In a nutshell you donāt want to release anything under a GPL license if you wish to have any real control over it. They make you think you actually have some control but you donāt once release, the only thing you get is continued credit.
Well that will just have to be proven over time I guess, I do hate the slip ring system in general, in my eyes itās clearly the cheaper way to do things, for example the moza r5 has a slip ring system and the higher end models do not.
Clearly a cheaper option, the difference between the moza slip ring and asetek slip ring is moza claims their slip ring has a life of 5 million rotations, asetek claims to have tested their slip ring to 200 million rotations without any issue. So quite a large difference in quality there I would assume but either way I donāt like the slip ring design which is a wearing part, but if it lasts 10 plus years with no issue I guess who cares right.
Thanks for the input, I wouldnāt have seen that not being part of the discord.
All good Mate, quite many guys not on there. I have no insight into the technical details of the deal, but for me it is enough to know that developments are ongoing and exciting times ahead.
I think many look at the new wheels released and get concerned about where SC2 is at, I can honestly say I am not, and the only one I have not tested is the Moza. But it is on the weak side and not something I am keen to try out tbh.
But I will definitely try the larger Asetek unit, like I said earlier, I think it will be a very decent wheel, and more so if it come on at the right price-point. I suspect SC2 Ultimate will remain on top for a while still, similar to how the Bodnar SS2 was up there for many years.
It does take a special blend of servo, encoder, FW, drive-filters et al to create that perfect dd wheel recipe. But letās see once Asetek is widely available and FW is mature, how it performs.
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I dont agree with all that buzz about powered QRs on Simucube bases, they are a point of failure in every wheelbase that use them.
SC2 QR was a big selling point in my purchase.
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