Simucube 1 vs simucube 2


#221

Wouldn’t it be better to ask for a possible upgrade option for current SC1 users at least for those with the most common motors? The possibility of a closed path to such option is what upsets me the most after spending 1300 €uro only a few month ago.


#222

Please specify in more detail what that update would look like, and what would be YOUR expectation for the target from performance and price point of view. Please also keep in mind, that the Simucube 2 project target is to unify the hardware, so most likely at least the encoder would have to be unified too.


#223

My Vision would be the new control board mounted in a case with cable connectors the same as SC1 or DB15 and different power connector.
The case could be the same diameter of the new motors so the new backplate could be used.
Offer it compatible for the Large and small mige with the Biss C encoder only.
And only support those motors.

Between Argon, Ionicube and Simucube I am sure there are thousands of people who have Mige motors.

Big question would be since the new motors are supposedly more efficient, would the new power supply be enough for the Mige motors.


#224

hmm… I wonder how many would buy such upgrade hardware when they can buy SC2 with known pricing? With what price we should sell the hw through our partner network to the existing customer / SC1 user? So that price difference also would be reasonable considering that the user can sell their SC1 as second hand and buy new SC2. I have not studied this potential option but I just wonder how the hw upgrade path should be done so that looks better for the user and for us than buying SC2?

SC1 builds are excellent in their performance. The previous being said, the reason why hardware needs to be unified is quite simple. Selling hardware (with this sales rate) that was originally designed for industrial automation engineers or a person who is knowledgeable and can absorb fair amount of needed information to use the product is actually somewhat a challenge when the user does not fall into those categories.

So, the opposite, if we do not unify the hw, and we would continue this road, the amount of support cases would linearly increase as the customer base increases, which in turn means that development time will linearly decrease if new resources are not added to our company. If we stop here and do not make a product that better suits the customer needs and our needs as hw developers & manufacturer, we would over time not be developing the product, only giving product support to existing customers (which is bad for everyone). SC1 had to be improved and over time will be replaced (new sales) with something more suitable for the task for our development and also more suitable for the drivers, but without any sacrifice to the performance (actually improving the performance quite a lot).

So, to summarise, to me it seems that our ability to further develop current SC1 platform is quite simply the better the less complicated we make things by adding another hw to be supported. If we add new hw to be supported to the portfolio of products, it will increase our support work and simultaneously decrease our time spent on development, the time that is beneficial to the driver. This is my understanding. Any offered hw upgrade path needs to be simple and such that it does not significantly increase our support work.

Drivers, please note, that SC1 is still developed & supported, wireless wheel support was added and soon wireless wheels and wireless addon modules are available for SC1 builds, also SQR will also offered to SC1 builds. The SC1 platform is still evolving and is being developed by us.


#225

Tommi,

I have several ideas how this could be accomplished. We can discuss that in private if you are interested.
I am sure if you talk to your resellers they would also have good ideas.

Since the hardware for SC2 is already developed and Granite Devices already has extensive knowledge of the Mige motors used, it mostly just comes down to creating an enclosure for the new SC2 board and adding connectors for the already established Mige cables.
Only support the Biss C encoder. If people do not have BISS C they would have to purchase it.

Only sell this to existing OSW customers and forbid resellers from selling this unit with mige motor to prevent creating competition for SC2.

Once price is established start a poll on iRacing and this forum and see how many would be willing to purchase. If the numbers look attractive to Granite Devices you could create a pre-order program and that could cover your upfront cost for the project.

Talk later,
Joe


#226

But I could sell the SC1 only with a huge loss now due to the release of the SC2. So this might be an option for long term users but i guess most customers who have bought the SC1 within the last year would rather consider to buy an upgrade board instead of buying the SC2.

If you want to unify the hardware this would be the most customer friendly way. I have no doubt that the GD team has the knowledge to make this happen easily.


#227

Is sim racing application that much different from others where GD servo drives are used, with support of wide range of motors and encoders on Argon and IoniCube.
Was SC2 designed with only specific motor and encoder in mind?
But we already see 3 motors and different precision encoders on SC2. It just doesn’t add up.


#228

SC2 firmware does not give user access to servo drive parameters, there is no Granity interface, and the firmware loads parameters on start. As Tommi said, it is not realistic to add more and more configurations into the firmware, and also to build another type of variant of the firmware project, and to keep maintaining it, is a continuous task that we would want to avoid.

Also, sc2 dc current input circuitry expects a highly efficient motor. One would not be able to get the same torque from popular sc1 motors with these brick style power supplies as you would get with the sc1 units. Redesigning this would lead to a pcb design project on its own, not just a repackage, which would push the cost again higher.


#229

Thanks Mika for taking time and your patience explaining all these things.


#230

What about small steps? If you guys change only processor on faster/better one in e.g. IONI Drive or something like that, do we need totally new firmware? I still belive that OSW never die.


#231

Ultimately what needs to happen is Granite devices to take a hard look at this and see if the numbers add up.

If you do not want to do it just say no we are not going to do it for xyz reasons. And the market will just have to deal with the decision and that is the end of it.

I personally think many would pay a reasonable amount of $$ to get a brand new control supported by SC2 software and be able to continue to use the Mige motor they have.

There are many who bought SC1 who simply can not come up with the $$ to get SC2. I am sure used SC1 sales are going to tumble in value just as Argon and Ioni cube builds did.

The above is just my opinion and I do not have any financial interest in this. I speak just as a prior OSW reseller and user with people who are asking me questions about SC2 and any upgrade path to SC1


#232

I guess you are just wasting your time , not only you ofc. You can crearly understand that it is not going to happen. When the answer is one sided without leaving even a small window , makes things clear (although i don’t know if it is good in terms of marketing for gd but that’s something they should consider when giving answers). Selling sc1 as second hand and buyin sc2 made me laugh at least which is good.

@Tommi ( SC1 is still developed & supported, wireless wheel support was added and soon wireless wheels and wireless addon modules are available for SC1 builds, also SQR will also offered to SC1 builds) .

All those things are to be introduced i guess, since they haven’t released yet , correct ? Sc2 has firmware 0.12.6 and sc1 has latest version released at November 4th, 2018 with atleast 3 known bugs.


#233

I tried to give a peak view how the support work looks like with hardware that is not unified and fixed with certain hw. It was not intended as marketing material. In the above text I tried to avoid to give any false promises of delivery dates that cannot be uphold. Giving promises of something that might be doable after certain amount of time or not known time, is not wise because knowing the customer preferences of the future is tricky thing.

I tend to sell hw that I do not need after I upgrade my hw. Like a car, I have always sold my old car after I have bought another.

All in time.

Servo drive upgrade could be doable (with new MCU), once next gen ioni can be sold to industrial customers also. This is something we have internally thought about. Currently we cannot promise time frame for such upgrade.


#234

I speak as a new former owner of SC1 … and future owner of SC2. the changes made are many, change motherboard and encoder has a cost, see version 1 and buy the 2 has a cost similar to a hypothetical update, I think therefore, even if with regret that creating an update line is not worth it, and would remove too many development resources for assistance.


#235

Loukas I would try to have a little bit more positive outlook to this.

If Granite devices thinks it makes sense to add support to the Mige motors with SC2 that is wonderful. But if they do not the SC1 is still a very good product. People can continue to use it hopefully for years to come.

SC2 looks like a great product. We will soon know how much better it feels than SC1. If it is not a huge difference then maybe some will not want to make the investment to upgrade SC1 or even be in a big hurry to get SC2?

Let’s just wait and see and try to keep being respectful here on the forums. We are in Granite devices house, so I hope everyone can respect that.


#236

I would expect a price around 300 €


#237

what would that “brand new control” include then?


#238

The first comment of mine was for Joe. I am basically saying not to fret about something that is isn’t going to happen. I didn’t ask for any official promise but a crystal clear “no” whould be better just to clear things up.

If you say that a sim racing wheel is like a car , well that is an opinion. I didn’t expect to read it from someone official though but it is ok .

All in time ofc , i guess that is for the wireless and the sqr. A comment about the Sc1 firmware ?

Also a question about:" unify the hw." Well basically most simucube (i will not include ionicube and argon) builds are made with simucube + pro or pro hc + ndr480 or sdr 480 + small or large mige and encoder 40k , sincos , biss. Even if we have the same gear if it is from another vendor it will have different drc. That can be tricky for you in terms of support tickets and also in support from games. Just to give you an example for the 2nd , the rf2 profile because it is set for 18nm will not work the same and ofc that’s only a small problem. My question is why don’t you make some optimal drc files so that all the vendors use those or even if the vendors want to use their own (then it whould be up to the user to choose the ones you made if they want). I am asking because even if you say (and with you i mean gd) that you will try to have sc1 profiles for the games that will have profiles for sc2 , if those profiles are just sc1 in general , what will be the benefit ? Even if you didn’t have servos like the large mige at a time to make one , in the post “which is the best dd motor…” has been stated that you have basically all the optimal motor parameters to provide us with better drc files that will in a sense also help to unifi as much as possible the sc1.

@Joe i am positive but i am also a realist. There was nothing negative nor will it ever be about such things.

I am also waiting for the results from the motor shootout but also since i read that the Sc2 has custom made servo and no further info about the vendor was disclosed, i think i ll wait.


#239

Loukas

I would expect around 700 euros for a control that would replace the whole Simucube control. But I am basing that on approx what it costs to build a simucube control.
Or it could be priced by cost of SC2 minus cost of Mige motor?


#240

How many times will we have to comment about it?