Force adjustment

Simucube 1
1

There are some people that I know, who would want to also adjust MCC and MPP directly via SimuCUBE.

We now adjust the power via MMC parameter, which in IONI firmware is used to scale the torque setpoint. Current is limited to MCC level after 1-2 seconds and MPP limits the current according to a calculated power consumption. MCC should be set quite close to MMC parameter in order to get linear forces for the maximum amount of time, but setting them too close might overload the power supply and also the IONI drive requires a little room between the MCC and MMC parameters upon initialization.

See:
https://granitedevices.com/wiki/Motor_peak_and_continuous_current_limits

Typically the limit of MCC is less relevant as the I2t limit should not kick in due to motor temperature, unless very high constant torques are used.

Only thing I see that would benefit from MCC adjustment, is to have some kind of nonlinearity or deadening of the long peaks in the forces.

What type of nonlinearity is beneficial? How many did adjust also the MCC parameter to get the required feel when using MMOS? What type of additional force adjustment is missing currently?

We will get rid of extra technical parameters from the user interface at some point, but we also want to keep options available for advanced users. To me, it was a real surprise that the MCC and MPP parameters are something that people have been adjusting. So, please try to also convince me why they would be required.

Please discus! :slight_smile:

1 Like
2

Hi Mika,
I always had my MCC approximately 0.5A max below MMC, never further away than that.

Gave me very good results on old Argon/MMoS builds, same on IoniCube and also the same on SimuCUBe. I prefer the direct linear response behaviour, personally I will stick with this methodology as it has served me well.

3

Mika,

I have always done the same as Beano , except at one point I was setting MCC 1 amp below MMC.
From reading your statement are you saying that MCC is staying at the set point on the Ioni via Granity no matter where the MMC force slider is set on the Simucube?

For example if MMC is set to 12.00 and MCC is set to 11.5, if the slider in the Simucube software is set to 8 amps MCC is still 11.5?

Sorry I could not explain that better. :smile:

4

Yes, MCC is not being changed, it remains where it is at.

5

Btt und back to our discussion. IĀ“m really missing the complete set of MCC, MMC & MPP sliders, cause with only MMC the Simucube looses the advantage of fine tuning options basically. IĀ“m driving only street- and GT3 cars in Asssetto Corsa, mainly Nordschleife.

As a motion user, I donĀ“t need the more as necessary input from the steering wheel and even a fitness studio I have in a seperate room near by. My intension while simdriving is a much as possible real feeling, even in a simulated power steering whell. The problem is, that no racing sim has implemented this parameters, imho there is no Windows API to give these parameters directy to the motordrive.

To simulate a true power steering wheel iĀ“m fighting aganinst the rest of the simracing world, but compared to a real GT3 car, imho ALL simusers are using much to much torquesettings.

In real cars a very worst characteristic of a power steering is, and here I must use a German term, ā€œwenn sich die Lenkung verhƤrtetā€. cause I donĀ“t know a correct translation, but this means when with the next attempt to steer in the opposite direction, the steering becomes too stiff to move the steering wheel fast enough.

Exactly this is what happens with DD wheels. To modify the correct and well balanced FFB signal in game, is in many reasons the absolutely wrong way. With a small Mige and a setup like this in Granity and mmos at 100%, a nearly perfect power steering simulation for GT3 cars is possible:

MCC: 6 A
MMC: 6,1 A
MPP: 60 Watt

With the new firmware with the only MMC adjustment, there is no chance to fine tune it perfectly.

Against the background of the Podium series at gamers horizon, not a second one click software with castrated options is needed, but a professional software wich offers professional tools.

6

Hello Eddy,

I thought to ask a few clarifying questions.

So do you mean that in real life the power steering gets weaker (or even ā€œlimitsā€ the speed) by function of the steering wheel rotational speed and also that there is in effect dead zone or ā€œstiff zoneā€ in the power steering which you can feel when you start your counter steering move, especially with hydraulic power steering cars?

7

Tommi, pleaseā€¦no. In real cars is no deadzone and the steering resistance isnĀ“t a function of, or depanding on steering speed. May be every one of us own a modern car and knows the feeling of a powersteering. There is linear force. In the middle and at the end of ratation equally. Even hitting a wall nothing happens with the force.

More than a year, ich I was a little unhappy with the Mige and Simucube, until I discoverd the MPP slider in combination with MCC and MMC. Now every thing feels well. Unfortunately the new firmware doesnĀ“t offer the previous flexibility of adjusting and I had to roll back to Granity and mmos.

8

For us, it would be fantastic to understand what is the feeling and physical reaction from setting the MPP like you have set it. Then we could determine the best way and parameter range to achieve such effect or feeling. As it is, the MPP is mainly there to limit power consumption from the power supply, and the feeling one can achieve by setting that, might change from user to user - for example, from motor to motor.

We need to be careful when adding such parameters, and we also must be able to physically describe what happens, so that we can write minimal documentation and to provide support for customers.

9

Hi Eddy,

So this is bad and should be avoided? Right? But this phenomena happens with all the other settings other than the ones you have found as in below?

MCC: 6 A
MMC: 6,1 A
MPP: 60 Watt

How would you describe the feel, perhaps with some other words than perfect (because it is not very descriptive)? What feeling exactly in the feedback makes the feel perfect with these settings? If you set MPP to 60, then for sure the steering wheel has constant max power, but weakening torque (to the commanded torque direction) as a function rotational speed, no matter what the sim commands. This is because shaft output power is a function of rotational speed and torque and if speed increases, torque must decrease.

If you set the MPP to 60, then the peak current is limited to 3,85 A (rms), that comes from sqrt(60/(1,5*2,7)). Peak of sine would be 5,44 A in stall condition.

As I understand it, you desire to have constant power from the shaft and you get that if you limit the power with MPP as you have done, but which now seems to be impossible to achieve?

10

Hi Tommi.

Indeed itĀ“s very difficult to discribe the feeling. Like real, discribes it as best. Very well details all over the whole rotation, not to less, not too much, feedback from street as well as from grip and even rear axle.

In practice MCC, MMC and MPP are influencing each other massivly. MPP on 60 Watt isnĀ“t nearly the same as 3,85 A peak current with unlimited MPP at the same time. ThatĀ“s the problem. Only with all three sliders at
exactly the values above it feele like it feels.

Your best way to investigate dear Tommyā€¦ take a fast plane to Berlin an check out my sim. Cool beers includedā€¦

11

Hi Eddy,

Surely, German beer or two is always nice to drink :slight_smile:
Would you say that some high frequency feedback, is not so strong / less apparent to your hands when the MPP is set to 60? Would you say that there are some other differences in force feedback feel than the previous description?

The reason why we want very specific feedback, is because we actually need to define even something that what is ā€œrealā€ and do that very exactly before that something that is defined as ā€œrealā€ can be simulated with hardware.

12

One thing to consider also, is that the MPP parameter is not meant to alter feedback in the FFB system, you are just experiencing a side effect of it. This means that any alteration of that implementation in the servo drive firmware algorithms would change feedback feel, which is exactly what we do not want to do. That is why we need to define the wanted effect/effects/feel better before implementing it to SimuCUBE system officially.

13

Tommy & Mika, thx for your heartfelt commitment.

My setup ist totally straight. No effects nowhere, no filters nowhere ( mmos general filter is at 1 ) and low pass filter TWB in Granity is set below 480. No high frequencies are reaching the wheel.

I think so tooā€¦, what IĀ“m looking for is the sideeffekt of the MPP, and yes, IĀ“m using the MPP like a medical off label therapy. Before going this way, IĀ“d played around with LUTĀ“s. Brrrā€¦ horribleā€¦

Meanwhile IĀ“m confident, that the generally thinking error is, that a DD wheel must be purely linear while using it as power steering wheel. IĀ“m with you, that ( too ) many sliders are not the best way and many users are overwhelmed.

As a dev ( thanks to god IĀ“m not ) I would implement a curve editor like a gradiation trim in Photoshop.

https://www.webmasterpro.de/design/article/photoshop-gradationskurven-verstehen.html/image/Bild_9.png

THIS is, what IĀ“m true dreaming about and THIS ensure, that all edges of the table can hold the place without relenting the persons position around it. Basically straight motormanagement, linear and tecnically clear, but with the option to fit it for all situations.

Since this comes reality, IĀ“m using my unconventionally methods.

The end justifies the means. In this senseā€¦ stay coolā€¦

14

Hi Mika,

So is it really not that important to keep MCC lower than MMC anymore?

I have been shipping controls set MMC 12.86 MCC 12 for a while now.
Most people run the Simucube slider at 50 to 100% range. So that means the MCC is always higher than the MMC. Do we need to start doing something different?

Thanks,
Joe

15

SimuCUBE firmware keeps track of the MMC parameter, and resets it to the saved value before saving any settings and also before user goes to Granity mode. So the actual adjustment behind the scenes is invisible to users.

For IONI drive to initialize correctly, there should be some difference between MMC and MCC, and MCC must be the lower one of them.

16

After reading your response, I have a question.

Since the average user does not go into Granity to adjust settings anymore, would it not be a good idea for the Simucube software to scale both MMC and MCC via the slider?
I never really thought about this situation until this thread was started.

17

When the Simucube control is powered on does it initialize via the settings in Granity before the Simucube software takes over?

18

Well, it is not required so thats why it is not being done. MCC parameter is mainly meant to keep hard-running factory machinery temperatures at a certain level but to allow higher peak torques via MMC.

Yes, the parameters in the user-selectable ā€œDefault profileā€ are set to the drive only after drive has initialized.

19

Mika,

How is your personal control setup? MMC, MCC, Simucube slider setting, iracing NM settings for your car of choice?

20

MMC 12.86 A, MCC 11.5 A, MPP 480 W, iRacing at 30 Nm.

In SimuCUBE profile, I have slider at 60% for GT3/GTE cars and at 55% for LMP1, Reconstruction Filter 1, TBW 2200 Hz, Damping and Friction both 0.2%.