Even with quite a bit of damping on a AKM playing AMS oscillates @ sim expo @ heusinkveld Engineering simrig with leo bodnar sim steering2.
(and quite a bit stands for a considerable number or amount of something)
Thats what i just said in my post above. They use quite a bit of damping and it still oscillates and overshoots as the video shows. and that’s not just with a akm.
That would probably mean that AMS has some pretty harsh feedback telemetry and it will be hard to control at all. I haven’t used AMS so I don’t know how bad it can get with that game… If it is in the Telemetry more than likely you will NOT be able to control it with filtering, nor really should you try, because this is where you will have the issues that you are talking about as far as having too much damping slowing down your responsiveness… In reality the filters are best used to adjust a servo to track the telemetry. But because it is very hard to actually track the telemetry there is some variance there… as well you can determine how much you want the servo to deviate from that telemetry in either direction (harshness or deadness) which is where the SimuCUBE is great in that it will allow that range…
Basically it is that if you use the filtering in the way it is designed and don’t try to make actual telemetry changes through motor control filtering you will not affect your ability to control the car in any manner. It will just make it nicer to drive as you won’t be fighting the attributes the servo imparts on the feedback.
Skeijmel, I wonder if you could try the following settings on the AMS Formula V10 at Imola and see whether it changes the feel of oscillation.
Also—I was getting soft clipping in the V10 at the default RealFeel setting, so I increase a few ticks in game until it went away. I have had to do this for pretty much every car in AMS, per their compromise in settings to accommodate less powerful wheels.
It may be a matter of differing preferences for what FFB ought to be like—but on my large mige, I just don’t see the kind of harsh isolation depicted in your videos with these settings. I actually still prefer a bit of dampening, but these settings I am posting address pretty much just the impact of notch and slight RealFeel adjustment.
I noticed exactly that ever since watching the first ever OSW videos while researching it for a year before I purchased mine. I thought this was just due to the OSW being in early development and not refined yet (ie. powerful, fast but unrealistic behavior) - unfortunately I was wrong. And, yes, it feels like cheating for me too. I’ve been harping about this for probably two years now (way too strong centering, the wheel does the work while you just hold on, feels like cheating, etc.). People say they can save slides better, yes, because the OSW is basically cheating for you.
Letting go of a steering wheel while getting oversteer in a Skip Barber going through the final corner at Sebring and having the wheel automatically save the slide for you is extremely unrealistic. This behavior can be replicated in most cars in most sims.
P.S. I used to sweat much more when driving with a Thurstmaster T500RS than with an OSW. The OSW is moving around and doing a lot of work for me while I just hold on and let the wheel do it’s thing as if a ghost is driving for me. With the T500RS, like real life, I have to do the work while the wheel only acts as a “guide”.
When I use an OSW, I am not too sore in the arms because the wheel is driving for me - only my wrists hurt (from the overly forceful movement). With my T500RS and in real life (F2000, F1600, 125cc karts, rental karts, etc.): it’s the opposite: there is absolutely no pain in my wrists but my shoulders and chest feel sore like if I went to the gym because most of the turning of the wheel comes from my body’s force, not the wheel moving itself.
Center frequency, attentuation, and QFactor are very important for refining some forces especially things like oscillations. The iRacing forums state those 3 settings (all work with one-another) are quite important. They can make a big difference with fixing oscillations. You should look into them. They help refine things a bit.
NFF: 7.0 Hz - Large Mige
NFA: -3.3 dB - Large Mige
NFQ: 1.0 - Large Mige
NFF: 2.5 Hz - Small Mige
NFA: -2.3 dB - Small Mige
NFQ: 0.5 - Small Mige
Those worked great with my MMos OSW a few firmwares back but became not as good with more recent firmwares but maybe try them for a start?
Also, make sure you lower the in-game FFB to around 70% or else the cars will have too high of forces and clip. Instead of in-game FFB strength, you can raise each cars’s MaxForceAtSteeringRack (realfeel.ini) by 20-40%. I think it’s the same thing. This needs to be done because the car’s at default have clipping built in or else the FFB would be too weak for players not use high-powered wheels.
No game is. We are trying to reproduce passive forces by using active forces and, on top of that, using position-based rather than torque-based systems. The fundamental basics of FFB technology itself is flawed.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!
Everything morOSWer said.
+1111111111111111
If someone describes what the gyro effect does, then something can be attempted. However, at the current point in time, we have no plans to integrate the SimuCUBE into any game telemetry systems.
Expanding a bit:
If there is a guy that wanted to do the telemetry interfaces, or if there was an open source app that does that, then of course interfacing with that would be gladly accepted. It is just that it is not cost effective for us to open the huge box of development effort required…
i think they meen the gyro effect from assetto corsa hidden in a .ini.
it simulates the turning of the front wheels(gyro effect). so that the wheel becomes stable and so the steering wheel oscillate’s less because the gyro effect of the front wheels turning.
so it would be like friction effect that increases as the speed increases… interesting.
I dont know how or why , but as soon as i turn the Gyro off, i start feelng the FFB decreasing when understeer, so i prefer Gyro off and dampen the steering wheel oscilations on sraight line with my hands.
I dont use to drive without hands anyway…
No but they way they do it in most games is just too simple and fake. its not as simple as more understeer = less ffb but thats what they do in the code of some games. it doesn’t feel like that irl at all.
Yes you lose a bit of grip with understeer since the tire is over its peak grip. so yes you have a bit lighter steering. but not they way they force it in these games.
Is unrealistic when ffb decrease if the front tires lose grip?
No its not unrealistic, you have a bit less grip when you understeer IRL since you are over the peak grip of your tire. but its not as extreme as in the games where they just purely fake it with understeer = less ffb, They way over do it.
its not that bad in all games. and also depends on your settings.
Yes the Enhanced understeer option in AC is extreme and unrealistic, but with Gyro on you lose that efect completly, nothing.
With Gyro off is very very light, but at least is there.
Yes the steering is too light in ac with gyro off. i totally agree on that.
I can still feel the under-steer effect in AC with Gyro enabled. I consider that effect to be confirmation of going beyond optimal slip-angle; ideally, one should rarely encounter it. The only other title that I am aware of that uses such an effect is RaceRoom, maybe PC2 to a lesser extent.
It seems AMS and rF2 rely on increased resistance leading up to front grip-loss where a plateau can then be felt in the steering.
I have been using gyro since the day It was avalaible.
I remember that understeer effect was more noticeable un some cars like some Lotus , the mx5 ,old F1 , and a few more. Probably the only one GT3 cars doing It was the Audi and the Lamborghini.
Car dependant, maybe is because if my settings.
Perhaps running a bit more Dampening / friction / filtering reduces the under-steer effect in AC. In some titles, having more road-bump detail seems to define the transition (reduction in resistance) better; I do use some of that in AC but, it’s very noticeable in PC2 when using the FX slider to increase bumps.
“I noticed exactly that ever since watching the first ever OSW videos while researching it for a year before I purchased mine. I thought this was just due to the OSW being in early development and not refined yet (ie. powerful, fast but unrealistic behavior) - unfortunately I was wrong. And, yes, it feels like cheating for me too. I’ve been harping about this for probably two years now (way too strong centering, the wheel does the work while you just hold on, feels like cheating, etc.). People say they can save slides better, yes, because the OSW is basically cheating for you.”
You do know that this is actually a realistic effect and has to do with the caster on the car. With the right amount of caster on a set-up at the correct speed you can straighten out a out of control real car with just a little touch on the steering and correct throttle application or non-application… Caster cause steering centering which means it will cause the wheel to track straight when you let go of the wheel. This is also part of why drifting is possible… With a normal car setup it is much harder to drift than if you have a car with more positive caster enhancing the self steering effect.
FFB in the way that the games deliver can enhance this self centering effect depending on the force levels you are using and the filtering because if you get the overshoots and oscillation just right it will use the caster and the slight counter steer overshoots to keep the car stable. So in the end it is a combination of real car behavior AND FFB that causes the effect… The DD wheels are just fast enough do this really well.
Another note… FFB delivery is not position based but the the amount of force the game tells the wheels is needed is generally based on the difference between the optimal position of the wheel and where you actually have the wheel (which is position based).
It’s not realistic. You have to correct slides yourself in real life. If you simply let go of the wheel, cars don’t save themselves. The opposite lock applied naturally by the vehicle’s physics without the addition of driver input will not be enough. You have to “work the wheel” yourself in real life.
From everything I’ve researched and all th FFB “gurus” I’ve spoken with over the years, they all say our FFB software and hardware are setup for position based control/output not torque based and that torque based would need re-working from both the software (games, firmware, etc.) and hardware.
Yes you are correct that you normally and most of the time correct slides with throttle application and steering control. But physics wise a car set up just right for it and circumstances in just the right manner, a can correct itself with little to no input from the driver. In real life it is rare but in most cases where the cars on iRacing are correcting themselves there are probably some other input forces at work as well, i/e throttle application, braking, just a touch on the wheel, ect…
In reality that is the holy grail of car set-up in real life is to have the car just right so that it feels as if the car is thinking what you are thinking and even when it gets out of shape it comes back to you in the way you intend… Like it has a mind of it’s own correcting itself and mitigating your errors on it’s own.
With the way I have my wheel set up it is very Natural in that respect, I do have to guide the wheel in MOST circumstances to correct an oversteer moment and if I do it wrong I do pay the price. I could never get the Skippy to self correct itself without a little (or in some cases a lot) of input from me.
It is actually kind of both Position and Torque based The software generally will use some sort of positional differential to determine the level of force signal to send to the wheel. Whether that is determined through a telemetry model that determines torque (as in iRacing) or is arbitrarily set by the programmers (or a combination of the two) is up to the developer. But the wheel is actually delivering that signal in the way of direct torque based on the signal strength provided by the software. This is why you can actually Turn OFF the FFB with the eStop and still drive on a Simucube as the positional feedback loop is completely separate from the Torque application.
Mika Assetto Corsa uses damping for the Gyro effect, in fact, if you increase the slide in directInput it hardens at high speed
